Honestly, I don't know how you have the fortitude to still care about this team.

The end of Bonds means the end of the team that took you that close to winning the World Series. And it's the triumph of the team that was so arrogant they pissed it all away.

Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Kansas City and Tampa. Those are the only teams that have won fewer games over the last three seasons than the Giants. Those teams don't have one single fan who's hanging on anything the team does tonight.

Why should I wait until the ASG? I'll print it out now and hold onto it, you are too good to lose. :^)

I basically agree with your post, but I also sympathize with him, he wanted to stay but his company disagreed and let him go. I would be pissed off too, fans or no fans, potential winning PH or not. He just got dumped after 15 years of relatively devoted service, why should he care if the team needed him now ($20M notwithstanding). He's human too, he's hurting inside.

Again, that doesn't mean he did the right thing (once again, he has the knack of not doing the right thing) just that I can understand where he might be coming from (as he has basically said over the years in bits and pieces, even he doesn't always understand himself).

So I forgive him. He started tonight, and he's playing the game out even though it's a blowout, and hopefully the fans there will give him a big standing O for 15 years of great baseball playing on his part.

He's no martyr, he's just Barry and he was one of the best to ever play and we've had the wonderful privilege to watch him over those years. Hopefully the door won't hit him in the rear as he's leaving. As he said, it's a business and it's still our team.

About the Giants, hey, it's only been three losing seasons and at least we got to see Barry in two of the three. Those other teams have been suffering for around a decade or more now, so it's not the same situation.

I basically agree with Allfrank and giantsrainman that we are not that far from competitiveness, but I think we have to figure out which of our prospects are ready to lead the "2009 and Beyond Giants" in 2008, and if there is a once in a generation type of free agent available in the offseason, only then would I want the Giants to sign him, else just play the youngsters and write off 2008 as a learning year. That won't sell tickets but I think that would be best for our franchise long-term (plus net us a good draft pick - perhaps franchise player - in 2009).

And really, at this point in the season, one game really don't amount to much of anything and Barry has always been about exerting the energy when there is something to play for, not the off-chance that something bad might happen, like the fielder screwing up.

>Honestly, I don't know how you have the fortitude to still care about this team.

It's called being a true fan. I've been doing it for 32 years. I've been through 100-loss seasons, horrid strikes, and a near-move to the sweaty armpit of Florida. It's not particularly healthy or sane, but wherever you go, there you are.

>It's called being a true fan.

Bravo! Tell it like it is, sing it to the choir! I wished I had written that!

why should he care if the team needed him now

Barry has always been about exerting the energy when there is something to play for

And that's
why so many despise him.

ummmm.... the martyr thing has something to do with being singled out as the devil who does steroids by a hostile press. Nothing to do with the decision by the Giants to not sign him next year. The former is outrageous, the latter just sad and stupid. Why signing your best offensive player for one more year hurts the Giants' future plans is something I will never understand. Too bad Magowan didn't stand by his word and Barry got to retire as a Giant.

"I basically agree with Allfrank and giantsrainman that we are not that far from competitiveness"

"else just play the youngsters and write off 2008 as a learning year"

You realize that these two phrases are contradictory, correct?

"Honestly, I don't know how you have the fortitude to still care about this team."

Granted it can be tough in times like this BUT how can you enjoy the GoodTimes and turn it on-and-off if you aren't a real fan. Dissapointed? Sure. Care? You Bet. I do not see how someone who didn't care (or jumped on the bandwagon) could really enjoy '87 or '89 or '02 or some or other exciting times w/o being a fan during some of the leaner times. Hell, true fans enjoyed the 49'ers run after enduring 2-14 and 6-10 seasons. We who cared during those times enjoyed their success even more.

BTW, anyone notice that Brother Moises has a 30 game hitting streak (the longest in the majors this year)?

Sorry guys, but the requirements of being a "true fan" sound an awful lot like having to "support the President" no matter what.

Show me a team that went from a "commitment to excellence" like the Giants had 1998-2002, then spent three years in the crapper without bringing in a new GM to fix the previous one's mistakes? Arizona canned Garagiola. The Mets canned Phillips. San Diego comes closest, but ownership was far more responsible for their problems than Magowan was here. Every other team sacks the GM for poor performance.

But I would argue that "real fans" by your definition are simply enablers. There comes a time when your monetary support (through ticket purchases and watching telecasts) of a team is counterproductive. For people who think Sabean is the problem, you kept his revenues up, and he got his three-year extenstion. For people who think Magowan is the problem, you kept his revenues up, and you convinced him to keep meddling in player acquisitions.

If we're going to use the tired cliche of the "real fan", then what the Giants need is some "tough love". They know what they need to do to straighten out, and they have to do it, instead of doing the baseball equivalent of smoking crack.

gdog, that's a valid point. why give money to a company that isn't providing a quality product? It's an entirely rational economic decision. Being a fan isn't exactly rational. If we were all rational beings, we wouldn't be spending our time writing and reading blogs about baseball.

Call us enablers, call us addicts, call us cliches. But it seems a bit silly to scold people for being fans of a team by telling them to stop paying attention.

Believe me, plenty of other fans with less passion -- perhaps you're one of them -- will walk away if the Giants continue losing. And the Giants will get the message when attendance drops below 30,000, then 25,000 on a regular basis. I don't think my tough love, even if I were capable, is going to tip the scales.

I have but one true passion as respects the Giants: getting rid of Brian Sabean. We don't need to discuss that any further.

Even irrational "true" fans sometimes stay away. It does not diminish their "fan-cred" anymore than it diminishes yours that you weren't on talk radio calling for Bochy and Sabean's heads three games into the season like a "true" Yankees fan.

My vote for the next Democrat for President won't affect the election in any way. But that doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do. (Wilford Brimley: and the tasty way to do it.)

Boof, it's not a contradiction. I think with a few additions and perhaps a key return to production (Durham), we can return to competitiveness, which to me means challenging for the division championship. That doesn't mean that I think they are capable of winning it all, which I think is what we all want at some point soon.

I think we need a year off from "trying to compete" and assess what we have in the farm system, plus give our pitchers another year of learning and development. I think the pitchers will be ready in 2009 (mainly Cain and Lincecum, but hopefully Sanchez and Wilson too, and maybe Misch and Correia) to lead the way, at which point we keep the hitters who are capable, and get free agents to fill the rest.

Also, by not going full out to win in 2008, we save payroll money for 2009-2012, where we can afford to pay more if there is a good free agent out there. Unless there happens to be a very good free agent available this year who can help in 2009-2012, in which case we need to go for the gusto.

The focus for me is on getting the Giants ready to capitalize on Cain and Lincecum being at full speed in 2009-2012 (Cain this year still was having problems, and Lincecum probably will have a similar experience his second year).

gdog, I think a true fan cares, and cares greatly, about their team, come hell, come highwater. It might mean that you disagree with what the owner (coff, ) or the GM (coff, ) does, with a vengence, but it does not mean that you stop caring about "your team", hence the reason we are called fans, because it is short for fanatics.

As much as people like to bitch and moan about Sabean, he has rebuilt half the team with young players. Albeit, it is mainly the pitching staff, but why does it matter what part of the team is rebuilt, as long as it is rebuilt, and nicely, with Cain and Lincecum leading the way, and Lowry, Hennessey, and Correia being nice complementary parts.

People like to downgrade Lowry, but his ERA+ was over 110 the three seasons he was pitching healthy most of the time, whereas I see nothing but praise for the D-backs for Conor Jackson, who I like, but his OPS+ is barely above 100, and he hits at a huge hitter's park but can't even break 15 homers or even top 900 OPS, which is what you look for in top 1B, whereas Lowry ranks in the top 30 in starters ERA in the NL.

With pitching like that, assuming they continue to develop and not fall to the injury bug (Lowry is officially on the worry list, unfortunately), we don't need much of an offense to compete, and with a key hitter or preferably three, we can go all the way.

That's why Sabean got a two year contract, to see what develops out of that core, instead of jumping on the back of the GM once there is some losing and tossing him out, when he has already assembled a lot of good pieces on the team. If our pitching staff didn't look so great, I would be all for jettisoning Sabean.

But I think he deserved two years to see what he can do with that pitching core and expanding beyond that. If his plan works, we should be competing for the NL Championship each year 2009-2012.

However, if he was replaced instead, I think there would have been a rebuilding period from 2008-2010, who knows which pitchers would still be around, as the new GM trades away our proven core pitching for prospect hitters (and probably end up with an Andy Marte type).

As various research has shown (THT, BP), it is good pitching and defense that wins World Series championships, not great hitting. We have the pitching, we probably have the defense, the question is whether we can put together enough offense to capitalize on the first two. I don't know for certain that Sabean can do that, but he has done a nice job otherwise that I'm willing to give him that chance.

Whether it's right or wrong that he was given a two year extension, the reality is that he has. Either you learn to accept that or you move on to another team because otherwise it should drive you crazy to follow the Giants while Sabean is still around. Complaining about him on a blog is not going to get him fired, however, just in case you were unclear on the concept.

Perhaps I've stopped completely understanding the English language, but to me it is contradictory on the one had to say:

"I think with a few additions and perhaps a key return to production (Durham), we can return to competitiveness, which to me means challenging for the division championship. "

and then turn right around and say:

"I think we need a year off from "trying to compete" and assess what we have in the farm system."

Which one is it? Are we returning to competitiveness or are we taking a year off from competing?

If that's not contradictory then I don't know what is.

I don't contribute to this blog because I think it'll get anyone fired. No, I'm here to be entertained by whatever novel the Manic-Giants-Depressive decides to write today.

There are so many juicy bits, so hard to choose one...But this is a tasty thought:

"But I think he deserved two years to see what he can do with that pitching core and expanding beyond that. If his plan works, we should be competing for the NL Championship each year 2009-2012."

What, pray tell, is the plan? Who are these magic hitters who will be playing for them in 2009? The Giants have a bunch of 4th outfielders and a bunch of old guys. Do you think Nate Schierholtz is going to save the organization? Clear down to A-ball, there are no bats that could have one iota of impact two years from now.

I don't doubt your fan cred (and you shouldn't be doubting mine) but you seem to not have noticed how truly awful the Giants were for the last three years. But I'm less likely to get that point across to you by writing on this blog than I am to get Sabean fired.

So here's my offer. If Sabean puts together a legitimate contending team by 2009 - one that could actually contend from 2009-2012, I will, in the appropriate forum, extol both his brilliance and yours. But in the much more likely case that this has not happened, you will have to admit, once and for all, that Brian Sabean has no idea what he's doing. That means you own up to: giving draft picks away was a bad idea; signing old men was a bad idea; rebuilding only the pitching staff was a bad idea.

I'll check back in a couple of years to see how you're doing.