I agree it would be nice if Rios was younger and/or had longer until FA BUT I think it's a step in the right direction. Would you take Rios and Glaus (say if they Jays paid $4 mil per/yr of his salary)for Lincecum with no other players involved? Also I am a BIG fan, just like the rest of you, with what we saw from Lincecum and his potential but I know a few things about him that you don't that make me feel we should try to make a move sooner than later.

If I had to accept a trade like that, I would want Travis Snider or Adam Lind as that other position prospect but I know that's not happening.

Still, even with them, I wouldn't do the trade still, though if I knew what this secret is I might change my mind.

Why the big hold out BigO?

Oh, and I love the Beatles reference! I wished I thought of that!

Well obsessivegiantscompulsive I guess I know some sensitive material and "my source" who confided in me only did so when I gave him my word that I wouldn't spread it around. I have seen a few things myself so I'll try to figure out a way to convey part of what I know (that I've actually witnessed) and see if you can "read between the lines."

SO not into this trade. our chances of being a 71-91 team next year go UP with this trade, not down. I'm ready to slog through some more bad years, as long as we develop a farm system and lots of young prospects - but giving away one of the few we HAVE developed, "the Franchise" even - total mistake. I wasn't even ready to give up Timmy for Miguel Cabrera; this deal's far worse.

You wouldn't do this trade for two young above-average position players, a future bullpen star, and a couple years of a guy who's an elite power hitter when healthy?

I'm fine with trading Lincecum for hitting, but it has to make a serious impact on the lineup. No single player is going to make a serious impact on this lineup, though. I'd need two solid guys ready to step into the lineup in 2008. I doubt that's possible.

If Lincecum's arm is about to turn into jello, though, get what you can for him now.

Some perspective on this: everyone would have screamed bloody murder if the Giants tried to trade Noah Lowry after 2005 (his last above-average year). Now the Giants may not get squat for him.

I'm tired of the make-up and injury worries with Lincecum.

If the Giants were scared about injury with Lincecum, they shouldn't/wouldn't have drafted him in the first place, given the financial commitment it took to get him signed. They did draft him, they did give him some nice change, so don't start crying scared over injuries after he has quite the rookie season.

As far as make-up/attitude is concerned-- what, for a 23 y/o, could be so irreversible? Immaturity is a given. I don't think you are who you are at such a young age. I don't care who he's rubbed wrong in the clubhouse (after all, can he be 10% as bad as Bonds?). Surround him with the right people and let him grow up. If he listens to his dad more than Righetti, hell, that's probably a bonus.

Lefty-- should I even respond to a comparison of Lowry and Lincecum by listing all the reasons this isn't the same?

By that reasoning, you should trade every young player for an established vet who has maxed out his potential (even when that potential is a nice player who is not a star by any means) the moment after they post a good season. That worked very well for Joe Nathan. Let's go ahead and deal Cain while we're at it then.

To be clear, the trade I'm not into is Lincecum-for-Rios, not the one you proposed which is great but totally fantastyland.

"If the Giants were scared about injury with Lincecum, they shouldn't/wouldn't have drafted him in the first place."

ELL 9 OTHER TEAMS WERE scared including the M's who got to see Lincecum all the time right in their own backyard at THE U-DUB. He's small, has an unorthodox delivery and refuses to ice his arm.

"As far as make-up/attitude is concerned-- what, for a 23 y/o, could be so irreversible?"

NOTHING IS IRREVERSIBLE. HELL I sure remember what it was like to be 23 and footloose and fancy free but then again no one was calling me "THE FRANCHISE."

"Immaturity is a given. I don't think you are who you are at such a young age."

AGAIN, I AGREE but I assure you their are different degress of maturity and with some the hand writting on the wall is too much to ignore.

"Surround him with the right people and let him grow up. If he listens to his dad more than Righetti, hell, that's probably a bonus."

OUR CHARACTER AND MAKEUP IS determined a great deal by who we are around. The influences on Tim could be (and hopefully will be) much better in the future. Also while I don't know about RAGS let me tell you Tim's dad (who has gotten lots of props)is a backwards thinking hillbilly who could end up being more of a pain in the ASS than anything.

Now Lefty has asked me so I'll try to explain some of my thinking and see if you can read through the lines (As mentioned before I know someone who has witnessed first hand some behavior, that quite frankly has me worried, about Timmy. My word prevents me from saying what that is). I however will tell you that on a Wednesday morning in early November I was in an ARCO AM/PM getting some coffee when a Big SUV (Escalade I think) with chrome wheels comes screeching into the parking lot. It hits the curb and bangs up on the sidewalk and this punk lookin' kid gets out with his hat on sideways (and looking like he hasn't slept for a few days). He's wearing a Giants Sweatshirt so I tell him, "nice shirt, the G-men are my favorite team." He's still slurrin' his speech and ordering CIGS and says to me "Aghh, You know Tim Lincecum?" I said I know of him and have friends who know him and he says "That's his ride out there, he's been staying with me for the last month." "Ohhh" I say, "Are you the guy who played in the U-DUB golf tourney with him (another story not so favorable to Timmy)." He replies, "Nahh, that's our other friend but we've been having a really, REALLY good time. IT'S BEEN PARTY CENTRAL." We'll it looked like it.

Now I know this is pretty vague and lots of you will think "what the HELL" the season's over so what's wrong with blowin' off some steam? Trust me, I'm no prude but while I'M HIGH on Tim his value could dimenish quickly if he got a bad RAP.

I am pretty sure that the Giants picked the Jose Capellan from the Tigers organization:
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/stats/player.php?id=430642
http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/majors/news/264419.html

I actually think the BlueJays would have more interest in Dave Roberts then Ray Durham. The BlueJays could use a leadoff hitter and another outfielder more then they could use Durham as another secondbasemen. The BlueJays have a damm good secondbasemen in Aaron Hill. The Blue Jays could platoon Dave Roberts with Reed Johnson in LF hitting leadoff and move Adam Lind to RF to replace Alex Rios.

The BlueJays farm system is not that good. I don't think they have a position player prospect that would interest me enough to give up Fred Lewis for. But I also doubt if they would be willing to give up said prospect for Lewis either.

Therefore, the trade I could tolerate but not like would be Lincecum and Roberts for Rios, Accardo, and Glaus.

Tim, no it's this guy: http://www.soxprospects.com/players/capellan-jose.htm

As far as the anecdotes, bigO, no offense, but who cares? He's young, has gotten his first taste of real money, and is going to do some dumb shit as a result.

I'm not excusing his behavior. What I am saying though is that I'd rather gamble on him maturing as a person and developing as a player than trade him for Randy Winn Jr.

Going back almost a year, BigO has shared with us some pretty inside information - almost always very accurate and shared well before it 'hit the streets.' He laso gives pretty reasonable takes on matters - doesn't overreact. So, his unflappability + inside information source(s) make him a valuable source for us. And I have seen him take a much more cautious approach to TL in the past 2-3 weeks that has to be seen as alarming

Frank, thank you for your comments. Let's be clear, I'm a big TM fan and hope he does really well for the Giants for many years to come. For whatever reason I have close sources to him and do find out information (obviously some of it is pretty sensitive). Also, of course, I have no idea how things are going to turn out but I bet all of you know people who had a ton of potential and natural ability who could have been stars but you knew wouldn't amount to close to what they could. Hopefully TM's talent along with good coaching and good luck will all make Tim a real success (or like his father likes to say "a guaranteed hall-o-famer). I'm more concerned that his haphazzardness in regards to some of his activities will soon be more well known and make him less of a commodity than he is right now.

At 23, I suspect I did a lot worse. You don't need much money to throw a good party, trust me.

Now if there's something else going on, something serious (I'm thinking Josh Hamilton-hooked-on-crack-serious), that's another thing. Still, even there, look how good Dwight Gooden was despite the coke intake.

If your team only plays saints and Mormons, you end up with Orel Hershiser and 24 scrubs. That's not much of a team, to my mind.

At 23, I suspect I did a lot worse. You don't need much money to throw a good party, trust me.

Now if there's something else going on, something serious (I'm thinking Josh Hamilton-hooked-on-crack-serious), that's another thing. Still, even there, look how good Dwight Gooden was despite the coke intake.

When I was 23, I did enough drugs to kill a donkey. Twenty-somethings do some stupid stuff.

I will just reiterate what others have already said and say that if the Giants were intent on dealing Lincecum, Rios isn't the guy you get in return. Delmon Young was...

What's incredibly frustrating to me is that in reading Sabean's quotes, the Giants HAVE to acquire a bat or two this offseason. If they can't acquire one any other way, they will resort to trading Lincecum for Rios.

My question: WHY? This team is not contending in 08, with Matsui and/or Rios or not. Fans will be fine with that, because you're not going to tell them otherwise. 08 is a year to continue to shed salary (sidebar: has anyone noticed that you could credibly say this team is literally wasting half of its payroll--$40M!! Amazing... and I am not/do not consider Zito a waste).

Besides- if Sabean is so intent on acquiring some bats, he should have beat the Jim Bowden, who acquired Elijah Dukes and Lastings Milledge for pennies on the dollar, to the punch. Those two could be the 3-4 hitters in our lineup, with some room to improve too.

"Elijah Dukes" and "beaten to the punch" really shouldn't be in the same sentence.

If Sabean is so intent on acquiring some bats, he should have

..drafted Jason Heyward instead of Bumgarner. Now, I like Bumgarner, but Heyward has a chance to be a really, really good hitter.

"Elijah Dukes" and "beaten to the punch" really shouldn't be in the same sentence.

Too funny.

And btw, according to his Daddy, Timmy doesn't ice his arm for the same reason you don't ice your little soldier when it gets stiff.

Disappointed in the off-field news, but I sure love watching him pitch.

"And btw, according to his Daddy, Timmy doesn't ice his arm for the same reason you don't ice your little soldier when it gets stiff."

Yeah, he said, "Why would you ice your arm after pitching? It's just blood rushing to it. Would you ice your penis after using it? It's the same thing that makes your dick hard, blood rushing to it."