I was a big Sabean supporter up until this Winter. That being said, I cannot say anything Sabean did this Winter was wrong. And I have no problem with the Rowand signing.
I am greatly disappointed in the seeming ambivalence in how to go forward. I agree, it is sort of youth oriented - but not clearly so. And it is hard to see a youth movement in - or to justify a lineup of - Aurilia, Durham, Roberts, Winn, Omar, Rowand, Molina. Any one or two of tehm, in fact each of them, individuallty, can be justified. But ALL SEVEN, all the time, all as starters. I am sorry, I have a hard time seeing the wisdom or justification of that. I mean, if even two of them were traded over the Winter, the coming season would be more exciting for me, entailing, as it naturally would, the prospect of more ABs for Lewis, Davis, Ort, Velez.
I would love to be wrong in my assessemnt, but it appears to me that they are far too worried about W-Ls in '08 and too unfocused on '09 or '10.
That being said, if over the next 12-20 months they can develop 2 OFs, 2 IFs, and a C from their system, then they would only be 2 players away from a very competitive team. Hell, they are only 2 players away from a very competitive team now. It just doesn't seem they now how or where to look for these players; more worrisome, it seems they look in the same places they've always looked, the Helms, Crede's, et al.
On the other hand, I will feel much more encouraged if, say not later than the trade deadline, hopefully sooner, 3 of the above named are traded (and Kline is just cut), AND Lewis, DAvis, maybe Schierholtz or Bowker, Velez, Ort, maybe Ochoa get some consistent playing time, ABs, evaluation time.

I still think responsibility lies mostly with ownership. Every big free agent hire, from Bonds to Rowand, has Magowan's fingerprints all over it. I think that moves like the Morris deal are hopefully what lies in store for the franchise this season, moving veteran dead weight to try to get back anything resembling future value.

The organization needs a change in perspective. But while switching out Sabes for DePodesta is attractive, and would appease a lot of people, it wouldn't help right now. The ownership needs to wake up and admit that rebuilding is needed and that it's not going to be pretty for a couple of years. If they don't, we are doomed for mediocrity (or worse) for years.

I'm not sure the continued presence of Roberts, Winn, Aurilia, etc. is a sign of ambivalence about rebuilding. I think if Sabean could have gotten something for them this winter, he would have. (I hope so, at least.)

As for just releasing them across the board and eating their contracts, as many people call for, it would make more sense if the team had more depth in the minors. But other than Schierholtz -- and even he could benefit from more time at AAA to work on his plate discipline -- there aren't many prospects being blocked.

I think it is fair question to ask 'just how hard did Sabean try to trade any of the 7 vets?' And I think it is kind of pointless, if this is the team's intention, to start Roberts/Rowand/Winn, when, at a minimum, a Davis/Lewis platoon and/or Schierholtz in RF at least a) attempts to develop players for '09 - '11 and b) gives an important opportunity to evaluate those players. Roberts, Winn, et al, don't need to be evaluated, they will be off the team in not more than 2 yrs.
So, I am not so much arguiong with your point Lefty, I just think when it appears you are going to run out a starting lineup of Molina, Aurilia, Durham, Omar, Roberts, Rowand, Winn and appear to be prepared to get ABs and playing time for Velez, Davis, Lewis, Ort, SChierholtz as it becomes available, is not a very clear and convincing committment to youth and/or rebuilding. In other words, if you look at any particular situation, in isolation, as you did, it is perfectly reasonable. It is just the totality that seems to support the idea of an administration adrift.

I'm sure hiring DePo alone wouldn't fix the franchise, but as a fan I'd love it, if nothing else just to see if he's able to do anything with the team as it is. If we can't have intriguing young position players to root for, how about an intriguing young braniac of a GM?

Sabean is a tiger in the same ol' stripes, a dog with no new tricks...it's veteran savvy or nothin'. I thought he might do something once released from Bond-age, but it hasn't happened...what happened to the stealth rebuild?

You want to see how it's done, just look across the Bay. Yeah, Beane had chips to work with. But instead of trading Harden or Swisher for the other organizations' top ready-for-prime-time prospects, Sabean could have traded our oldies for a passel of low maybe's -- quantity is important! -- and some contract-eating. Instead he sat tight, which is not the worst thing he could do, but it's not moving forward. And it's left us with lots of savvy to clog the lineup.

Certainly Magowan contributes. The Zito disaster has "owner" written all over it. It's grim to think we're in the same boat as Baltimore and Angelos, 'cause that means it can go on for a *long* time. But are you suggesting that Magowan is insisting on Sabean keeping the likes of Durham and Roberts on the team? Not likely.

To answer your original question, why keep giving them our money? Because it's baseball! The green of the park, the contest in each pitch, the traditions...following "my" team, even if they're losing, still beats most other things in life.

I just finished typing a long, rambling follow up, but my comptuer crashed and it's gone. Basically yes, ownership is largely to blame for the mess we're in and if they weren't, Sabean would already be gone. But there is nothing we can really do about ownership, and Sabean still has a payroll in the upper third in the game, 2nd in the division to only the Dodgers. So I'm just going to re-post the eight reasons to hire Depo now.

1. The Giants have been terribly mismanaged since 2002. It’s truly remarkable how bad the farm system is above A-ball.

2. After the Giants lose 100 games in 2008, the expectations in SF’s front office will finally be appropriately set for a proper rebuild (the fans have been ready since 2005)

3. Depo learned at the feet of the best rebuilder in the history of the game (Beane).

4. Beane seemed to lose a step after Depo left.

5. The players Depo brought to LA (Ethier, Kent, Martin, Matt Kemp, Penny) are the core of the team now.

6. Depo was the victim of a smear campaign by the traditional media in L.A., it’s only fitting that a new media campaign bring him to power in SF.

7. If it is possible for a GM candidate to hate the Dodgers as much as we do as a collective fanbase, it must be Depo. He merely needs a proper outlet to repay them what they are due.

8. I personally thought Depo was a little too cocky as a 31-year-old GM. Now he is 35 and a father, let’s see what he does with a second chance.

I am all for bring in DePo. I am not a Sabean hater but he has made the bed in which he currently lies. This team is bad. I mean really bad. Tampa Devil Ray bad. I see a lot people screaming to play the kids. Well, from what I've seen if they don't pitch there not to good. I am also tired of the Bonds bashing. He carried this team and franchise into a beautiful new park and within a Dusty Baker brain fart of a world series. The first year he played her he lifted the Giants to 103 wins in the last great pennant race. If there had been a wild card that year we might have a world series ring. This team is not terrible because of Bonds. We could have been playing the kids the last couple of years and hoped that Bonds could make them watchable. Say what you will about last year but this is going to make it look like a walk in the park. Read the BP article on the Giants. The ownership is sucking us dry. Time for them to sell why the money is still good. We need new leadership. Please stop blaming Bonds. He may be an asshole but he was the best player in baseball since I have been alive. Maybe ever.

>Please stop blaming Bonds.

No one here is blaming him for the state of the Giants, if that's what you mean. And which BP article are you talking about? I'd love to see it; I read the site every day and must have missed it.

I like DePo and we could even give him a cool nickname like Home DePo! or something.

The Giants should be an attractive team for a young GM looking to cement his image. High payroll, slightly improving minor league system, pretty good fanbase.

DePo is in the Pads office right now, correct? I'm a big Kevin Towers fan, he's really surrounded himself with some good people.

Respectfully, we don't know if Depo is the answer. ELM got to the meat of the issue: Is it Sabes or the two-headed monster of McGowan/Baer who is to blame for how the team has been and is contructed? Personally, I'd like to know how much management contributes to baseball decisions. The final straw was the Barry Zito signing, and as Reeky said that had management/marketing written all over it. The true horror of that signing is that it showed they didn't learn anything from the latter part of the Bonds years - they tied waaaaaay too much of their money into one ifffy player in a bid (my opinion) to sell tix. The mark of a f&%ked up franchise (unless a huge wad of dough is involved: ie the yanks) is an owner who is too involved in player/personnel decisions. See Al Davis, the jerk who owned the Redskins; Angelos; etc. Give me an Art Rooney, Haas family situation any day.

Ownership kept the team in SF, signed Bonds, fninanced the best new stadium in the majors themselves (admirable in this day and age). Their incessant PR and pedantry is extremely tiresome, they are undoubtedly to blame for Zito, and I think they are more responsible than Sabean for refusing to rebuild sooner. However, I think the state of the farm system is more Sabean's fault and that is why he should be fired. I don't really fault his strategy of loading up on pitchers and trading them for hitters, but if you're going to do that you have to get more in return for guys like Aardsma, Accardo, Nathan and Liriano. Ownership do want to win a World Series, and steroids got them close, but in the new world order $100 million doesn't buy a great team. They have to be smarter about it. Smarter = Paul DePodesta.

Doug Wilson for GM!

Make no mistake, team McGowan has my eternal gratitude just by keeping the team in SF. But I think they've gotten more involved over the years. I don't think now that they would trade a popular Matt Williams and his fat contract for Julian Tavarez, Jeff Kent and Jose Vizcaino (a trade that won the Giants the NL West in 97). That was pure Sabes and the trade that set up the salad days. The farm system? It's a fair cop.

I agree, Sabean made a great trade 10 years ago. He actually made another great one 7 years ago, to get Schmidt. Unfortunately, I don't think that justifies keeping him now.