When the Giants Come to Town, It's Bye-Bye Baby

04.10.2008
4/10/08: The Formula

Giants 5, Cardinals 1
: Great starting pitching, timely relief with runners on base, and a few clutch hits: that's the how this team has to win. Five runs is a cornucopia. But all of a sudden, perusing the rest of the pitching matchups this weekend -- Zito v. Lohse, Cain v. Wellmeyer, Lincecum v. Piniero -- and more of the same doesn't seem so far-fetched. Unfortunately it's arguable whether Kyle Lohse or Barry Zito is the better pitcher right now. But I'll just keep pretending he's the Giants ace. La la la la.

PLODAG: Kevin Correia. 7 2/3 shutout innings against a red-hot Cardinal team. How's that for a fifth starter, pal?

The Upside: FreddieLoo! Speed and extra-base power (triple, double) from the leadoff spot? Pinch me.



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[April 11, 2008 9:59 AM]  |  link  |  reply
obsessivegiantscompulsive said

I don't think it's arguable at all. Two nice starts for a lifetime, roughly, 4.80-4.90 ERA pitcher prior to this season does not make him even a league average pitcher yet. Further more, he has been helped out by his home parks, his road numbers are horrible. And he faced the Washington Nats last game, and Colorado when they were struggling in his first.

He's pitched poorly here before, I think he's not going to pitch so well today.

I don't think that there was anybody who thought Zito was our ace even last season. It is only his contract that makes people say that. But if you look at the numbers, he's paid like a good - not ace pitcher - in the early years of the contract, and by the time we reach the middle of the contract, baseball salary inflation would have reduced his contract to that of an average league pitcher.

Of course, he hasn't pitched like one so far this season, but I blame that on him thinking too much, which is a complaint I heard when he was an A's pitcher, and that he's been trying to overdo things again. With the starters having a nice streak of good starts, I think that will relax him more than pressure him and he'll have an OK outing tonight. I think, like Cain on opening day in SF, he's been a little amped up and overthrowing, and should be better now.

[April 11, 2008 11:38 AM]  |  link  |  reply
Chris replied to obsessivegiantscompulsive

A career ERA of 4.70-4.80 is pretty close to league average these days. Lohse might be closer than you think, he's got a career ERA+ of 96, which means he's just barely under league average.

>> But if you look at the numbers, he's paid like a good - not ace pitcher - in the early years of the contract, and by the time we reach the middle of the contract, baseball salary inflation would have reduced his contract to that of an average league pitcher.

I'm not sure even league average pitchers will be getting $18.5M a year by the time Zito is. In fact, I think teams are getting smarter about contracts. Case-in-point is Mr. Lohse, who was trying to get a 4/40 contract but no one would give it to him. Instead, he settled for a 1 year $4.25M deal. I think teams are less likely to overspend on free agent pitching these days. Unless the pitcher is a legit superstar (Johan Santana) but I think you can make a very good case that teams aren't overpaying for pitching as much as they used to.

It seems to me that most league average starters get right around $10M a year.

USS Mariner has a nice article about it, here.

http://ussmariner.com/2008/03/12/mlb-embraces-replacement-level/

[April 11, 2008 1:11 PM]  |  link  |  reply
obsessivegiantscompulsive replied to Chris

Did you read through that article? It's nice on the surface but does a face-plant much like Fred Lewis yesterday comparing Lohse with Suppan. Whereas Lohse has been pretty consistently "meh", Suppan was actually pretty good his previous 4 seasons (and 5 of 6) before signing the big contract with the Brewcrew. Lohse has been that good twice in 7 seasons, once in the last 5 seasons.

Suppan is no back of the rotation guy, even last season he was middle of rotation good, prior to that he was #2 material. Lohse has mainly been back of the rotation dross.

And to your point about his ERA+, I've had a big problem with the ERA+ calculation of a while, it is not like OPS+ at all, it doesn't convey very well how good pitchers are intuitively.

Yeah, you would think that being so close to 100 is good. But, for example, would you think that a 4.19 ERA is close to a 4.46 ERA? I wouldn't, the former is what a good #2 starter can do, the latter is what an average #3 starter can do. That's Suppan's 2003 season and his ERA+ was a whopping 106.

So for every 5 up or down from 100, is up or down from the #3 starter. So having a career ERA+ of 96 is actually quite a big jump from "average" 100, that puts him as a #4 starter, hardly a middle of rotation guy.

And does 2 really good seasons make up for 5 mainly poor seasons? Those five average out to a ERA+ of 89.

Not even close comparison.

[April 11, 2008 1:30 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Chris replied to obsessivegiantscompulsive

>> Suppan is no back of the rotation guy, even last season he was middle of rotation good, prior to that he was #2 material. Lohse has mainly been back of the rotation dross.

I always wonder when people talk about a pitcher in terms of "He'll be a X-number starter" where they are getting their terms from? I mean, what makes a guy a #2 starter versus a #3 starter? Have their been any studies that ranked pitchers performances by rotation slot? I tend to think such rankings are arbitrary and change from person to person.

I guess in a long about way my question is: "What makes a pitcher a #2 starter?"

>> Yeah, you would think that being so close to 100 is good. But, for example, would you think that a 4.19 ERA is close to a 4.46 ERA? I wouldn't, the former is what a good #2 starter can do, the latter is what an average #3 starter can do. That's Suppan's 2003 season and his ERA+ was a whopping 106.

ERA+ adjust for the league and park factors. So, even though Suppan had a nice-ish looking ERA in '03, it was only 6 points better than league average. You compare players to their counterparts (and league enviroment). So, while a 4.19 ERA looks good, in the context of 2003, it wasn't THAT spectacular. It's sort of like comparing dead-ball ERA's to today. The environments in which baseball is played is always changing. For example, an ERA of 2.22 in 1908 was worth an ERA+ of 109. An ERA of 2.22 in todays game is unheard of but in 1908 it wasn't THAT spectacular.

ERA isn't a fixed stat that never changes, it fluxuates with league difficulty. Also, let me say that I really don't care for ERA much as a statistic because it can hide bad underlying trends.

>> So for every 5 up or down from 100, is up or down from the #3 starter. So having a career ERA+ of 96 is actually quite a big jump from "average" 100, that puts him as a #4 starter, hardly a middle of rotation guy.

I'm not saying he is league average, he's not, but he might be closer than you think.

>> And does 2 really good seasons make up for 5 mainly poor seasons? Those five average out to a ERA+ of 89.

Good seasons count, too, just like the bad seasons do.

>> Not even close comparison.

I still think it's close. If were talking about the 2008 Kyle Lohse vs. the 2008 Barry Zito, I think it's very close.

[April 11, 2008 4:52 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Anonymous replied to Chris

I'll add that (a) it's not worth paying attention to a pitcher's track record going back more than a couple of years, since their skills change (usually for the worse) so quickly; and (b) the difference between a 4.19 ERA and a 4.46 ERA is about six runs a year. Not a terribly big deal.

[April 12, 2008 9:31 AM]  |  link  |  reply
Evan Camfield replied to

This was me, not Chris. Sorry for the confusion.

[April 12, 2008 12:59 AM]  |  link  |  reply
obsessivegiantscompulsive replied to Chris

You seemed well versed with the latest research so I just assumed. Sorry.

The Hardball Times had a study (sorry, no time to search, maybe later, but I think it was after the 2006 season, around Nov/Dec) where they basically ordered all the starters on each team's staff, lowest is #1, so on, plus, he split the games, so if the best ERA pitcher started only 20 games, he would include, like, 12 games from the #2 starter to build a composite #1 for the team.

Using that analysis, he found that the threshold between the #1 and #2 starter was around 4, so basically under 4.00 starters are aces, low 4.00 was #2, mid 4's was #3, high 4's/low 5's was #4, and 5 and beyond were the #5 starters.

Hello, 2003 is not that different a runs scoring environment as today. If you really think that a 4.19 ERA is basically the same as 4.46, then we'll never agree.

And you missed my whole point, Lohse is nothing like Suppan.

[April 12, 2008 9:35 AM]  |  link  |  reply
Chris replied to obsessivegiantscompulsive

>> Hello, 2003 is not that different a runs scoring environment as today. If you really think that a 4.19 ERA is basically the same as 4.46, then we'll never agree.

What I'm trying to say that is that ERA isn't a stat that always stays the same and can be compared to different seasons in time.

A 4.19 ERA could be the same as a 4.46 ERA if you compare them in different years, environments, etc.

I don't think that is that unheard of. I even gave an example of how ERA changes over league and time. I think we can agree, I'm just trying to figure out what part you don't agree with.

[April 11, 2008 10:02 AM]  |  link  |  reply
Cardinal70 said

The Cards needed to win that game to have a real shot at winning the series. Hate to see Wainwright falter, but give Correia some credit, he kept the Cardinal bats quiet.

I do expect they'll bust out tonight against Zito, though.

[April 11, 2008 10:21 AM]  |  link  |  reply
Evan said

Indeed, it's not arguable -- Lohse is clearly a slightly better pitcher than Zito these days. More strikeouts, fewer walks, fewer home runs, while pitching largely in home-run parks.

Which, since Lohse is on a one-year, $4.25 million deal, brings up the ever-popular "how much of Zito's contract would we have to eat in order to trade him" game. I'm thinking $80 million.

[April 11, 2008 12:28 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Mark O'Connor said

What more does Fred have to do to get respect? Roberts was handed the job because we overpaid for him. Several of our marginal replacement level OFs could deliver the goods at least as well. Sad to say, his injury is a boon to the team.

[April 11, 2008 12:50 PM]  |  link  |  reply
obsessivegiantscompulsive said

Here's what Ron Shandler wrote about Lohse today:

Is everybody grabbing Kyle Lohse out of the free agent pool after he opened the season with 12 scoreless innings? Big deal. During the week of April 15 last year, he threw 15 scoreless innings. Then, during the weeks of May 28, June 7, June 30, July 6 and July 25 – over the course of 45 innings – he posted an ERA of about 1.50. This is a pitcher who finished the season with an ERA of 4.62.

I don't remember which pitchers got the big contracts this off-season, so perhaps inflation was put on hold (though I doubt it), but last season, jumping off of the $10M that average pitchers like Lilly, Vicente Padilla, and Jeff Suppan, and growing it out at the 10% salary inflation that The Hardball Times said is the norm, plus a high rate one season, Zito's paid like a good pitcher - not an ace - early on on a per-season basis, then like an average starter in the middle, then below average at the end.

I'm not saying that it's not a tightrope act that will necessarily pay off, I'm just saying that his salary per season is not like that of an ace (his total contract size, however, is and hence why everyone harps on him being an ace). What the Giants are appearing to be betting on is that he can be a workhorse innings eater that will be a good pitcher for about a third of his contract, an average pitcher for a thrid of his contract, a slightly below-average pitcher for a thrid of his contract.

It's a cow of a contract being digested by a boa constrictor and it will take a long time to see whether it will cause indigestion or satisfaction by the end. Much like Bonds, which was also a huge gamble given that he was entering his late 30's (where Mays had his big downturn). Good thing he had his lost season to the knee late in the contract and not early.

Obviously, Zito's not off to a good start, but it's all small samples this early in the season. I think he will do better once he gets over himself and just pitch.

Lohse's career road ERA is 5.18, and if you look at the league ERA for 2007 (from Lohse's bb-ref profile), league average is 4.64, and if you look over his career, mid-4 ERA is league average.

Here's how he accomplished his league average ERA in 2007: playing at two hitter's havens - CIN and PHIL - yet somehow he was much better at home than on the road, his home ERA was 3.03 and his road ERA was 6.17. I'm betting that he just had a really lucky year at home - it happens - and that the real Lohse, as indicated by the 5.18 career road ERA, will show up eventually and crash his season.

I think Lohse will eventually work out much like the Card's experiments with Ponson, Wells, Weaver, and others in recent seasons and be a big bust. But if you are betting on him being better than Zito, I think that's a poor bet.

[April 11, 2008 4:02 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Boof replied to obsessivegiantscompulsive

Hey, OGC, I'm going to let you in on a little secret that we keep here amongst the lunatic fringe: Zito sucks. He will never earn what he is being paid, even if we take into account triple digit inflation.

Your point is well taken, though. Lohse, Ponson, Wells, Weaver all suck also. They're just not paid as much.

[April 11, 2008 4:45 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Evan replied to obsessivegiantscompulsive

The inflation question is an interesting one. The 8% to 11% annual salary inflation in MLB is well established by now. But of course that's much, much higher than the actual inflation rate in the economy as a whole, so it can't continue forever. On the other hand, there are clearly a bunch of rich global revenue streams that MLB hasn't really tapped into yet. On the other other hand, the U.S. economy is likely to be pretty miserable for at least a year or two, so the money may dry up somewhat.

It's all impossible to predict, of course, but if I were a baseball executive, I would be extremely leery of projecting 10% inflation indefinitely.

Anyway, just to put the Zito deal into financial perspective: His 105 runs allowed in 196.2 innings last year was about 22 runs better than your average replacement-level scrub. Which means his $10 million salary was right on the money, since free agents are commanding $4.8 million per ten runs or something like that. But his salary is going to go up quite a bit faster than the inflation rate. So even if he's able to stay at the same level and never gets hurt, things don't look good.

[April 11, 2008 4:06 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Zo said

Here is what I see as the upside, and what really jazzes me: Sanchez's 6 scoreless innings followed by Correia's studly performance. I thought Correia pitched very well last year, particularly building on each start at the end of the season. With young pitchers, you look for small improvements with each start in their approach, stamina and abilities, and forgive an occasional blowout. That is easy to forget with Cain and Lincecum, because their abilities are already at such a high level. Sanchez, IMHO, had a breakout performance Monday to give us 6 with only 3 hits, 10K's and only 2 BBs. To follow that up with 7+ from Kevin just sets a whole new tone to this rebuilding thing. Is Lohse a bigger lohser than Zito? Who cares.