When the Giants Come to Town, It's Bye-Bye Baby

04.03.2008
4/2/08: Zoiks

Giants 2, Dodgers 1: When is a win not a win not a win? When you see the health of the franchise, or The Franchise, flash before your eyes. Big Papi Malo was asleep by the time the rain stopped, thanks to the daily grind of new fatherhood, and didn't catch Lincecum's outing or the discussion about Bochy's decision. I'll step aside and defer to your opinions today. PLODAG: Lincecum I've changed my mind. I'm giving this one to the much-maligned bullpen. On a wacky night, four relievers allowed three baserunners -- only one walk! -- and no runs in five innings. The Upside: Merkin Valdez. Emergency start, two perfect innings, four strikeouts. Hair-raisin'! 

Bochy and his staff: Dumb-asses? Discuss.



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[April 3, 2008 12:13 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Bayside Baller said

I don't get it. They treated Lincecum probably over-carefully last year when they shelved him at the end of the season, and this spring when he had that groin pull. Then they put him back in after a rain delay? Between this and allowing Cainer to throw 114 pitches the other night, I'm thinking the managing staff has gone loco. Are they trying to literally hurt the only thing our team has to look forward to this year and down the road?

Excellent pitching by the staff. We're going to need a lot more games like this one this season.

[April 3, 2008 12:18 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Mark O'Connor said

I think you should get your starter ready to pitch. If you scratch him, scratch him. Don't jerk him around. It is APRIL, we are NOT in a pennant race, we have a boatload of youngsters, they need dependable coaching, regular routines, and clear expectations. Leadership, in other words. Lincecum may be unique, but he is still basically a rookie. Sabes tried to trade him, now Boch treats him like a garbage-time long reliever. Great! On the plus side, a great win, studly effort by the 'pen. The Smoggers got Merked and never recovered.

[April 3, 2008 12:43 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Dave H said

As a Padres fan, i'd have to say good luck with Boch.

He's a good guy and everything, but he's obsessed with finding lineup spots for the over-the-hill guys like Aurilia, Klesko, Mark Sweeny and Roberts.

Basically, he hooks up his hunting buddies with playing time, at least that's how it looks.

If there's a perspective on Boch from Giants fans, it would be interesting to hear it...

[April 3, 2008 1:15 PM]  |  link  |  reply
ELM replied to Dave H

A quick take on Boch: last year was too much of a circus to judge Boch. As noted above, he was extra-careful with Lincecum, he didn't ride Cain too hard. The bullpen was a mess, but he inherited the Benitez problem.

He played the veterans a lot, but the youngsters got a decent shot. Ortmeier was the starting 1b for two months, Frandsen the 2b and Wilson the closer for the last month or so.

This year is truly the barometer. Protect the franchise pitchers, build a decent bullpen, and play the young hitters. That's Bochy's job.

[April 3, 2008 1:36 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Chris replied to ELM

>> he didn't ride Cain too hard.

I disagree Lefty, I think he rode Cain moderately hard. Cain was 8th in the entire majors in Pitcher Abuse Points -- a BP metric -- behind constant workhorse Livan Hernandez.

From May 19th to June 16th, almost a month, Cain threw 110 pitches or more in 6 straight starts. Including a season high 123 on June 10th against the A's.

He had another similar stretch between July 28th to August 28th. On July 28th, Cain threw 121 pitches and then pitched 6 straight starts in which he threw 100 pitches or more.

Cain's walk issues will drive up his pitch total from time to time, but I think Bochy leaned on Cain quite hard last year. And with the injury nexus for pitching being somewhere around 24-years-old (Cain is 23 this year) I'm a tad concerned with his usage.

I think because of his body type -- which may or may not help him with durability -- Bochy used him quite strenuously at times, and in my opinion, too harshly.

[April 3, 2008 2:27 PM]  |  link  |  reply
ELM replied to Chris

Chris, thanks for pointing that out. I stand corrected.
Boch needs to be more careful, but Cain and Lincecum also need to learn to be more efficient. Reaching 100 pitches by the 5th or 6th is tough on everyone -- including the bullpen. The Dodgers were good at extending at-bats against both of them.

Cain had terrible luck last year, but he also had games where he walked too many, or let too many batters have extended at-bats, and couldnt get into the late innings. I'm not blaming him; it's part of his learning curve. But he needs to be more efficient.

Same goes for Zito. Too many extended at-bats. But with his diminished stuff, that's a different story.

[April 3, 2008 1:07 PM]  |  link  |  reply
ELM said

More head-scratching: We knew all week there was a chance of rain for the final game. Rain-delayed games are exactly why teams have long men in the bullpen. Yet Boch used his long man, Yabu, for one inning in the first two games of the series. Wilson could have pitched the 9th Tuesday night.

[April 3, 2008 8:34 PM]  |  link  |  reply
natteringnabob replied to ELM

I lost a long post on McC making the same point. These weren't just bad Lincecum decisions.

If Yabu is the long guy, he's supposed to be used in this kind of situation. (In fairness, I think the first mistake on that note was NOT using him a lot in the opening game. He could have pitched more than he did, or should have, and then someone else would have been available for extra work or the spot start. Which, from what I have read, is what teams do with long relievers).

Then, Merkin throws 25 pitches and two perfect innings... and he gets yanked? With an off day the next day? I don't get it.

Taschner: fine. But again, only one inning with an off day the next? If you're going to use him, maybe he can go for more than one inning.

Lincecum: It seems very stupid to tell the phenom, 10 minutes before he's supposed to start, that he isn't. Because the OPPOSING MANAGER told you and it seemed like a good idea. Maybe the promise was that he would pitch the end of the game. BUT even if that's the case, once it does rain, you look like a drooling idiot when you go back to the kid to tell him he's running out again, to endure the risk (if there was a risk) you were supposed to be saving him from anyway.

And, Hennessey was doing nothing. I realize he didn't pitch well on Monday, and it's nice to not get swept by the Fodgers, but again I don't see why he needed to be fresh for the flight to Milwaukee either.

The first two games were bad because of all the bad play/mistakes. This game was bad because some nice performances (especially Merkin's, and Lincecum SCORING THE WINNING RUN) were obscured by all this foolishness.

[April 3, 2008 1:46 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Anonymous said

Good points, nice to see him going with the youngsters, since that's what the Giants need.

As far as starters, Boch likes to have his 7-8-9 inning guys lined up to shut the door (a luxury he may not have with the SF pen). Cain and Lincecum should be able to go 6 or like 90 pitches, whichever comes first. Boch is not really not a guy that's going to develop your pitching or 'pen too much, although he does work well with catchers as an ex-backstop himself.

[April 3, 2008 3:39 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Boof said

Is there really any reason to be playing Durham anymore? The man is beyond done. I don't buy the "might have value at the trade dealine argument" either. Who would want him.....for anything?

[April 3, 2008 4:38 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Jefferson said

Dumbasses? I don't know. I think you're overlooking some other factors. They could be idiots, or morons.

If the Giants start off like the Hindenburg this year, I can see Bochy getting fired, especially if he makes odd moves like this with the future of the franchise.

[April 3, 2008 4:55 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Jonathan said

Bochy is a placeholder/good soldier until the endemic problems can be fixed. I think the G's went too far in the other direction after Felipe, who appeared to have an icy relationship with some of the players. The front office is the problem that needs to be solved. That said, the Lincecum handling last night was extremely disturbing, and defeats the purpose of rebuilding.

[April 4, 2008 1:54 AM]  |  link  |  reply
johnP said

The logic is simple: All you do is simply say, "OK - today, I'll have flip-flop my bullpen and my starter. (Aside from convention, why does the bullpen *need* to pitch at the *end* of the game??? - think outside the box :). What is the advantage of flip-flopping? Because there is a 50% chance of saving your starter (the game ends early). Scenario 2: there is a rain delay, and the starter comes in after the delay. So OK - what happened. the 50% chance did not occur. (He does not want to blow out his entire bullpen) He puts in the starter. No harm, no foul *in real terms*. The only enemy here is the preconceived notion that the bullpen *must* pitch *after* the starter (not before). The fact that he had to bring in the bullpen to end the game is a simple function of Lincecum throwing too many pitches...

In other words, Bochy is showing greater flexibility of mind, and ability to think outside the box, than the fan base :)

[April 4, 2008 11:22 AM]  |  link  |  reply
Jefferson replied to johnP

Thinking outside the box is good. Taking all the advantages gained by doing so, bundling them into the fireplace, lighting them on fire, and then tossing in a full gas can? Not good.

By the way, give Joe Torre credit for the idea, not Bochy. Bochy wouldn't have done it if he hadn't heard about Torre doing it a few minutes earlier.

[April 4, 2008 1:56 AM]  |  link  |  reply
johnP said

Plus - he won the game, for crying out loud! and all you can do is complain that Bochy broke convention by having the bullpen pitch early? Why is nobody giving him credit for being creative - and winning as a result?

[April 5, 2008 9:28 AM]  |  link  |  reply
nattering nabob replied to johnP

No, Torre made an unconventional decision. Bochy copied that decision and then made (or compounded) several more foolish decisions on pitcher usage.

It's great to win a game, but if it's the only one for another week and messes up the bullpen and rotation for several days after, it's a bit pyrrhic. It's one thing to see Bocock or another kid goof up, but a supposedly-experienced manager should be doing a better job with pitcher management than Felipe.

[April 4, 2008 2:25 AM]  |  link  |  reply
John Perricone said

johnP,

He won the game?

That's your response to a dozen well-thought out comments about our manager's efforts to impede and/or destroy the long-term development of the ONLY VALUABLE YOUNG PLAYERS ON THE ENTIRE TEAM?!?!?!

No foul? If Lincecum gets seriously hurt because that idiot used him after an hour and a half rain delay --something virtually no manager does with ANY pitcher-- then what? His career could be over.

And you wanna sit here and talk about some April win for a team that'll be lucky to avoid 100 losses?

Do you work for the Giants? Are you Brian Sabean?

I mean, are you kidding me?

[April 4, 2008 11:20 AM]  |  link  |  reply
Jefferson replied to John Perricone

Apropos of nothing: for some reason, I had wondered if "johnp" was John Perricone. Now I know they are separate individuals (assuming John doesn't like to berate himself on other people's boards).

[April 4, 2008 12:14 PM]  |  link  |  reply
ELM replied to Jefferson

>assuming John doesn't like to berate himself on other people's boards

It's Dr. Perricone and Mr. JohnP Hyde! Gaaaaah!

[April 6, 2008 1:48 AM]  |  link  |  reply
johnP replied to John Perricone

"manager's efforts to impede and/or destroy the long-term development of the ONLY VALUABLE YOUNG PLAYERS ON THE ENTIRE TEAM?!?!?!"

You *actually* think he is *trying* to *destroy* the development of anyone? Dude - really???

I cannot keep up a debate with you. Your logic is beyond my comprehension.

Peace.