When the Giants Come to Town, It's Bye-Bye Baby

09.18.2008
Slack for Sabean

Henry Schulman of the Chron reports in today’s rag that under new Giants managing partner Bill Neukom & Co., Brian Sabean’s job is safe for another year. According to this site, his current contract runs through ‘09, and the team has an option for 2010.

I wrote this in the comments yesterday morning:

As for my own beliefs — can the Giants make the playoffs next year? — I shrug and smile obliquely. I certainly hope they do, but not as part of a short-term, short-sighted plan. Given the tenor of the front office this year, and given the ascendancy of Bill Neukom, who spent his career plotting long-term legal strategy for one of the most patient, relentless companies in the world, I don't think near-sightedness is a big danger.

Firing Sabean this winter would make a splash; splashiness does not seem part of Neukom’s schtick. Besides — and hang onto your socks, Lunatic Fringers — Sabean’s plan, helped mightily when Magowan & Co. finally agreed to ditch Bonds and rebuild, has more or less worked. Let’s review:

1) Draft high, draft often, draft well: Sure, Sabean has the advantage of running a crappy team and receiving high picks, but plenty of teams draft high and fail. The scouting team Sabean and Dick Tidrow have built the past two years has hit the jackpot. (Speaking of new scouts, I missed this the first time around: In February the Giants hired Ned Colletti’s son as a scout in the Midwest. Weird.) 

2) Head ‘em up, move ‘em out: With a new generation moving up, the Giants are clearing the path. 23–year-olds in A ball are like college graduates still living with their parents. Time to contribute or hit the road. Ryan Rohlinger, Travis Ishikawa, get your feet off the couch and rake the backyard. Not all the promoted players this year were over age, of course, and the mad rush might hurt some youngsters, but it hasn’t yet hindered Emmanuel Burriss (sidelined with injury) and Pablo Sandoval.

Age-appropriate or not, the overall philosophy has been to put guys feet in the fire and see how they hold up. It’s not just for internal intelligence; you can bet the Giants want the rest of baseball to see guys like Bowker, Rohlinger, Denker, Ochoa, etc., in a major-league context. The more recognizable names the Giants can float in trade talks this winter, the better.

3) Don’t do anything stupid: Impossible. All GM’s do stupid things, or things that turn out stupid. The real test is how many, and whether a GM compounds them. The Giants’ neglect of the farm system was stupid; Brian Sabean is addressing the problem. Paying expensive mediocre veterans to fill the gaps around Barry Bonds was stupid; at least Sabean seems more cautious in the free agent market, the Rowand deal notwithstanding (more on that in a second).

Trading Joe Nathan and Francisco Liriano for AJ Pierzynski was, in hindsight, stupid, but at the time not entirely unreasonable. No other trade of young talent has royally backfired since, except Jeremy Accardo for Hillenbrand and Chulk. Kurt Ainsworth, Jerome Williams, Jesse Foppert, David Aardsma, Yorvit Torrealba, Carlos Villanueva, Shairon Martis: does anyone miss these guys?

Then again, Sabes nearly traded Tim Lincecum for Alexis Rios this winter (how nearly, we’re not sure, but it sure seemed close). After receiving the talk-radio equivalent of a horse’s head under his pillow, Sabean vowed not to trade his young pitchers. Let’s hope he’s not too badly intimidated. There are scenarios in which a trade of Cain or Sanchez makes sense. In fact, one could argue that Sanchez’s value will never be higher, but let’s save that discussion for another day. 

The bigger question — call it Stupidity Avoidance, Part Two — comes in the free agent market, where, ahem, mistakes have been made. Grant makes a strong argument here that if the Giants put Randy Winn in CF in 2006, they wouldn’t have the Roberts/Rowand contracts to deal with, more money to spend elsewhere, plus a better handle by now on Nate Schierholtz’s potential as a major leaguer. Roberts was an overspend, but even more ominous is Rowand’s dismal second half, highlighted by puzzlingly bad defense (one new nickname I’ve seen: Errant Throwin) and power that has disappeared faster than the Galveston beach party scene. I’ll bet it’s injury-related. The big question: Is it acute and fixable with a few months of rest and smarter usage next year, or is it chronic and the beginning of a 31–year-old’s athletic decline?

Bottom line: if Schulman is right Sabean has another year in which to wheel and deal, and unlike many Fringers, I don’t simply assume he’ll do the wrong thing. When the Bonds era ended last fall, we wondered if the team needed a clean sweep. One year later, Sabean apparently has earned himself more time to prove he can rebuild it.   



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[September 18, 2008 5:19 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Jordan said

Sabes has made his mistakes. Pierzinski (or however you spell that, I honestly don't care) was one of the worst moves ever. But, there was no way to look at Nathan and see grade A closer material. I honestly expected at the time that he'd retire within a few years due to injuries.

Rowand didn't make a ton of sense at the time, we got an OF when that was one of the few positions we had a glut of talent. However, he's a good player, injury and second half decline aside. I expect that next year he'll be back to form and impressing us all.

The farm system has majorly rebounded though under Sabean and in a short amount of time. We went from horrid in the minors to second best since 2005! That's wild. I'm just hoping to see what these kids can do with a full season. I'm hoping for one FA signing (please Texierra, pretty please?) and then leave the lineup alone.

The rotation looks set and pretty good:
Lincecum, Cain, Zito, Lowry, Sanchez and Hennesey waiting on the fringe in case we choose to trade Sanchez. If Zito can even keep his second half form we don't look too bad, let alone if he goes back to Zito of old.

I think this team will surprise a lot of people.

[September 18, 2008 6:27 PM]  |  link  |  reply
ELM said

I'm not sure about the "glut of talent" in CF. Lewis, maybe, but he takes bad routes; better to keep him primarily in LF. Roberts wasn't adequate at all in CF. I guess there was Rajai Davis, but it's obvious now he's a 4th OF at best.

It would be interesting to ask the Giants why they didn't trust Winn in center.

[September 18, 2008 7:54 PM]  |  link  |  reply
obsessivegiantscompulsive replied to ELM

Most all reports I read said that Winn's defense in CF was inadequate (while his offense was good) whereas his offense in RF was inadequate (while his defense was OK or better; it turned out to be better).

[September 18, 2008 8:23 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Chris replied to obsessivegiantscompulsive

Winn rated very favorably in CF in '05 and '06 and about average in '07 and '08. Smaller samples for '07 and '08 but Winn can play CF.

[September 18, 2008 8:24 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Chris replied to Chris

Got my years mixed up, here's his +/- scores in CF.

>> He was a (+14) in ‘04, (+8) in ‘05 and (-2) in smaller inning sample sizes in ‘06 and ‘07.

[September 18, 2008 6:41 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Marty said

Why not try and trade Cain for Fielder? Sign a vet or bring up a minor leaguer as our 5th. Our rotation would still be Lincecum, Sanchez, Lowry, Zito and whoever else. Then by 2010, Bumgarner or Alderson could be ready and in the meantime, we have our power bat we need.

[September 18, 2008 7:41 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Zo replied to Marty

This was mentioned in the Chron yesterday, whether it is a real plan or a casual mention is unknown. Why trade a blue chip pitcher for a slugger at a position where we seem to have some possibilities? Wouldn't it make more sense to fish in the free agent pool for a third baseman? Is Prince Fielder, in spite of 30+ home runs, really all that attractive so that we give up a 200 inning 23 (almost 24) year old pitcher for? I don't think so (and would want to take a careful look at how many of those Milwaukee home runs might not be here).

[September 18, 2008 7:42 PM]  |  link  |  reply
ELM replied to Marty

I'm not into the Cain-for-one guy trade proposals. Cain is like Danny Haren, but younger and cheaper. I'm not sure I want this to happen, but if the Giants wanted to trade him, a package of good young players and prospects should be the goal.

[September 18, 2008 7:58 PM]  |  link  |  reply
obsessivegiantscompulsive replied to ELM

+18

And he has a very cheap contract covering all his pre-free agency years (though that's, what, 3 more seasons?).

But any question about sluggers doing well outside their current home applies to Cain, his home has typically handily beat his road, though I think they are more equal this season. Whether that continues is another question.

[September 18, 2008 8:22 PM]  |  link  |  reply
obsessivegiantscompulsive said

Great post!

I would add that given Accardo's health problems, it might turn out to be a push, Chulk did not do that badly for us, which was the point of his inclusion in the trade, gaining Hillenbrand for giving up some in the Accardo for Chulk equation.

On A.J. trade, I would add that Baseball Prospectus had this to say about the trade:

* About Liriano: "There's some upside here, but with that injury history, he's a low probability guy."

* About Bonser: "Bonser's stock has plummeted just as fast as his strikeout numbers... [though] he could still offer Minnesota added value..."

* About Nathan: "Still, we're skeptical that he'll continue to outperform his previous record by such a wide margin - PECOTA sees a nearly two-run increase in his ERA. Gone to Minnesota in the Pierzynski deal; this was a good time to trade him."

* About A.J.: "Pierzynski's a solid hitter with moderate power, and will add a much needed reliable bat to the Giant offense. he's going to make a lot of free agent money when he hits the market..."

Clearly, they loved this trade at that time; people need to remember the trade for what it was at the time of the trade, context is very important in evaluation, as sometimes you make the wrong trade (ultimately) for the right reasons.

Winn in CF is great revisionistic thinking, but given his defensive lacking (all comments I saw said he sucked in CF but most said he was OK or better in RF) in CF, our pitching most probably would have suffered negatively from this move.

Then why stop there, why not don't sign Alfonzo and start Feliz at 3B? Or better yet, sign Kent to a long-term contract in 1999-2000 timeframe, before he got too fed up with Bonds? Maybe trade away Nen before 2002 and get a closer whose salary wouldn't kill our team payroll in 2003-2004?

[September 18, 2008 9:12 PM]  |  link  |  reply
Chris replied to obsessivegiantscompulsive

OGC,

You might want to check the source on your Winn comments. He's been an above average defender any time he's played in CF for an extended time period.

[September 18, 2008 9:42 PM]  |  link  |  reply
ELM replied to Chris

Winn in CF couldn't have been worse than Roberts last year or, unfortunately, Rowand this year. To the naked eye, Rowand's been bad -- the Giants' broadcasters have commented frequently. And the statistics bear it out. Someone on McChronic posted his Bill James Fielding Bible +/- numbers, and they were well to the negative.