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When the Giants Come to Town, It's Bye-Bye Baby | |
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When the Giants Come to Town, It's Bye-Bye Baby | |
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Giants 40-Man Roster
(w/2010 Salary, if known) PITCHERS
Affeldt (4.5 M)Bumgarner Cain (4.5 M) Hinshaw Joaquin S. Johnson Lincecum (9 M) J. Martinez Medders (.85 M) Pucetas Romo Runzler J. Sanchez (2.1 M) H. Sosa B. Wilson (4.4 M) Zito (18.5 M) CATCHERS
Molina (4.5 M)
PoseyWhiteside INFIELDERS
BurrissDeRosa (6 M) Downs Frandsen Gillaspie Huff (3 M) Ishikawa Pill Renteria (10 M) Rohlinger F. Sanchez (6 M) Sandoval Uribe (3.25 M) Velez OUTFIELDERS
BowkerFord Lewis Peguero Rowand (13.6 M) Schierholtz Torres OTHER
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I agree that Jacobs is a bad idea, even if you only consider his ineptitude in the field on its own.
As for dealing Molina, I don't see waiting until mid-year as a clear advantage. Who's to say that there will be nearly as much interest in a catcher at the time? It seems to me that most teams want to solidify behind the dish before the season starts.
I would not be too worried about starting the season with Pablo as the starting catcher, and Holm to back him up. That said, you do want to get someone useful for Molina. Certainly if you could pry someone like Niese, I think you'd have to do it.
Even if the return for Molina is no thtat great, it would do the Giants good to move him off the roster. First of all, the $6M they would have to pay Molina could be used more wisely elsewhere. More importantly, the Giants are a rebuilding squad and we need to find out if Sandoval can be the every day catcher. You'r not going to be able to do that playing him at 1B, 3B and sometimes at C. Having Molina off the squad makes this decision easy.
Jacobs.....no thanks. Same goes for Manny. However, if they can get rid of Molina & Winn (freeing up $14M), then the Giants could be a player for Texeira or CC, in that order. That would be a better use of their money.
Agree with boof, if we can get a worthwhile prospect for Molina we should. Like he says, we're a rebuilding team, and we need the money and prospects. I don't want the Giants to make a decision that hurts us long term in order to increase our chances of contending this year by keeping Molina on the squad.
The M's just fired the guy (Bob Fontaine-director of scouting) who "passed" on Tim Lincecum in favor of Brandon Morrow.
The M's just fired the guy (Bob Fontaine-director of scouting) who "passed" on Tim Lincecum in favor of Brandon Morrow.
The M's just fired the guy (Bob Fontaine-director of scouting) who "passed" on Tim Lincecum in favor of Brandon Morrow.
sorry, button got stuck I guess
No big deal. I would have fired him three times for that mistake too.
I also think that the Giants should move Molina if at all possible. Molina is great, but the Giants have too much emerging depth at this position to keep him. Save the $6 million and use it to help acquire a legit 1B or 3B power bat via a Sanchez trade or free agency. Sandoval is the solution, and if he proves inadequate then Holm, until the calvary, Posey arrives. If Posey and Sandoval are both great young offensive catchers post-2009, then trade one at that time, but don't move one out of the C position if at all possible, lest it be Posey to SS, another traditionally weak offensive position (doubt he has the range though). The Giants totally blew their chance to get Sandoval some serious time behind the dish this fall, but I think that they were afraid that they would hurt Molina's feelings. Molina's sensitive attitude is another reason to move him. How will he respond if the Giants want to give Sandoval or Posey substantial time behind the dish? Sour attitude is a legit concern given Molina's response over the Zito-Sandoval situation. Sandoval should not be moved from catcher because he has the potential to be a terrific offensive force at a traditionally weak offensive position. Sandoval will probably be an average 3B bat, below average 1B bat, but a steller C Bat. The Giants should not move Sandoval from C until they are sure he won't work out there. Sandoval looked okay at C on the MLB squad (I remember a few too many passed balls), but given the limited opportunities he receive, who knows? I agree that the Giants should resign Rich Aurilia. He is a great utility infielder in case of injury or a massive rookie funk and a moderately dangerous late inning pinch hitter with power.
Another negative point about Jacobs is that he has no business playing defense on a baseball diamond. He's a DH at 1B and was one of the worst fielders at his position last year.
By John Dewan's +/-, Jacobs was -27 plays under your average 1B last year. When you factor in his defense with his position, he's a below average player that's closer to replacement level.
His power might go down slightly at ATT, but it shouldn't disappear altogether. Jacobs does have legitimate power and in '08, Florida suppressed LHB's HR's at the same rate as AT&T did.
No to the Jacobs and Manny rumors, which we don't even know if there is any truth to them, they may claim the Giants are interested. Plus, we know Sabean kicks the tires on a lot of things, he could have simply asked the Marlins what they wanted for all their arbitration eligible players, to see if there is any match. That could be construed as "interest in Jacobs", which they are now marketing. I would think the Giants were probably more interested in their 2B, Dan Uggla, or 3B, Jorge Cantu.
And we know Boras likes to talk up his clients. Remember, Sabean asked Sheffield if he was going to sign for under $10M and was told no; to Boras, something like that could be construed as interest in a "Barry II". For Boras, it is all about marketing and he knows the Giants never confirms or denies anything.
Molina should fetch two high draft picks as an "A" free agent, particularly if a playoff team (most probable) signs him. The Mets farm system is not that great, Niese is no Kazmir, he is probably no Jonathan Sanchez either, and he might not even be a Kevin Correia. I would rather take my chances on mid-season trade desperation (injuries happen all the time to starting C) with the two picks as a nice return still.
Plus, no way Sandoval is ready to start, they held him back in San Jose last season to get catching coaching instead of promoting him like he should have been. No way he suddenly figured out how to catch adequately in less than a year.
Better to start with Molina then hand off to Sandoval mid-year if possible.
I'm with trading Winn, though, as that would open up RF for Schierholtz, among others.
9 other teams passed on Lincecum as well.
Obsessive,
I asked you this before when we were debating the merits of trading Molina and the merits of Sandoval staying at C at your site, and you never addressed this question: What is your source for your statement that the Giants "held him [Sandoval] back in San Jose last season" due to catching woes? Sandoval could have been making adequate progress as a C, and the Giants might have wanted to "hold him back" to work with Decker simply because Decker is the best C coach in the Giants system. They Giants might not have been signaling that Sandoval is incompetent at C, but rather simply that they see him staying at C and that an outstanding prospect like Sandoval should work with the best defensive coach to accelerate his defensive progress. There is often more than one way to interpret such a move, and I wonder how explicit your source was about the Giants rationale and how much is your interpretation of a potentially ambiguous action. If you can clarify your source perhaps I will be persuaded. Best wishes.
"Sandoval's catching skills were considered unpolished when the season began. That's why the Giants had him return to Class"‚A San Jose, so he could learn from Manager Steve Decker, a former big league catcher."
http://www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci_10239912?nclick_check=1
Perhaps I took it to mean too much but to me, "unpolished" means that he has problems catching that requires daily coaching to get over. The Giants have a roving catching instructor, he could have simply went to Connecticut to tutor Sandoval if he didn't need much instruction. Any catcher who is held back solely to get daily tutoring on the art of catching from the manager, instead of minor tweaks that a roving instructor would provide, needs a lot of help defensively.
But I'll admit that perhaps I over analyzed the situation.
In addition, the prospect book I refer to, "Minor League Baseball Analyst" by Deric McKamey had this to say about Sandoval, "Defense at catcher and 3B is below average with low agility, but throws well and has soft hands." Even though he was catching in 2007, the book lists his potential as platoon 1B/3B, even though an offensive catcher would be so much more valuable. It shows that the author, who went through the MLB's scouting program, did not think he had the ability to stick as a starter at catcher in the majors.
Obsessive,
Thanks for your response. Hmmm... "unpolished" is a very vague term indeed so it is hard to figure out exactly what was meant. To call Sandoval's defense "unpolished" certainly carries negative connotations, but it definitely isn't equivalent to "can't make it as a catcher." "Unpolished" seems to imply that his defense could be okay at C and that he has the basic skills down adequately, but that he is still rough around the edges and needs to "put the finishing touches" on his technique. I think the Giants need to find out what they have with Sandoval at C, and it is a shame that Bochy didn't have the guts to sit Molina more frequently in the fall and give Sandoval half the starts at C to find out if he can cut the mustard. I am sure that if Sandoval is the starting C next year we can expect below average defense from him, the question would be how far below. Regardless he will probably be average to slightly below at 3B and below average at 1B as well. I still hope they trade Molina and give Sandoval a shot at C and find a real 1B or 3B via trade or FA.
Yes, if you only read that, but put together with what I read about his "Defense at catcher and 3B is below average with low agility" and that's how I came to my conclusion.
That's also why I'm OK with him taking over mid-season, I think he needs more mentoring time with Molina before we make him our starting C. Because Posey, as well as he has hit, isn't a guarantee to make the majors in 2010, even the top 5 picks hit a road block, and over half of them (based on my study) never even become a good starter, so I would rather prepare Sandoval to start in 2010 than to throw him into the pool in 2009 and perhaps screw with his confidence.
And if he gets a full year of mentoring, so be it, though in that case, then I would like to see Sandoval get more frequent starts at C plus see Molina pinch run for more often with Sandoval taking over catching duties, to give him more reps behind the plate.
And, really, every team passed on Lincecum, he was draft eligible the year before and nobody thought he was worth the $1M that he wanted. The Indians drafted him in the 40-something round, made a good try at signing him ( high 6 figures but he wanted 7) but lucky for us, didn't, else they would have had CC Sabathia, Cliff Lee, and Lincecum in their rotation last season.
I would also add to Chris's comment that Jacobs has suffered at home, he's a pretty decent hitter on the road, .832 OPS lifetime vs. still a good .800 OPS at home.
But that defense is bad enough that I would rather play Sandoval at 1B than have to give up somebody good for Jacobs. And we need a clean-up hitter, and he clearly chokes batting 4th, he's more comfortable batting 3rd or 5th, and we need a #4 hitter.
As idiotic as Bengie has been with his public comments, he just wears his heart on his sleeve, clubhouse disruption is not his game, that I can tell. And if the Giants really think he's a cancer, they would jettison him quickly in a trade. They have not been shy about getting rid of cancers, they traded away Livan and Benitez or let go as a free agent, Pierzynski and Kent.
And Molina played C in late 2008 because the Giants had a better lineup with him catching and Sandoval at 1B/3B than Sandoval at C and Rohlinger at 3B or Ishikawa at 1B against a LHP. Molina is a good hitting catcher and we had no real 3B, nor 1B against LHP.
The Giants were trying to win and, in particular, beat the record they had from the year before, which they were able to eke out. I can understand that philosophy, you don't want the players to get too used to losing nor too discouraged overall.
I wouldn't mind Aurilia coming back, but I'm OK with the Giants waiting to sign him while they figure out other positions first.
I would argue that Sabean was never serious about trading Lincecum but since the Blue Jays decided to publicize THEIR try at trading for Lincecum, he let every other team know through the media that he's in no position to not listen, to see if it shakes any good birds out of the brush. When it didn't, he made the public gesture that the two are untouchable. In other words, put up or shut up.
He never said once that the Giants were interested in trading Lincecum for Rios, it was the newspapers using the Blue Jays source that said the Giants were interested and I'm sure the Blue Jays played it up for their fanbase, to make a show like they were trying to do something. And like the Padres with Peavy and the Brewers with Fielder, the Giants would be stupid not to negotiate to trade Lincecum if the other team ends up offering the moon and the stars for him, but nobody was willing.
And speaking of Lincecum for Rios, that was the big trade that Tim Kawakami said the Giants must do in a column last year. Given his general cantakerous nature regarding our local sports management miscues, I find that he is oddly quiet about a public mea culpa regarding his very public stance and very negative article about the Giants if they don't do that trade.
He was totally off-base and yet while he feels qualified and free to attack the mistakes of management and share his great ideas, he doesn't hold himself accountable for HIS stupid ideas. I can respect a curmugeon but to take such a public stand and really be totally on the wrong side of that, you have to eat some public crow in order to keep your street cred.
(Sabean) never said once that the Giants were interested in trading Lincecum for Rios, it was the newspapers using the Blue Jays source that said the Giants were interested and I'm sure the Blue Jays played it up for their fanbase, to make a show like they were trying to do something.
I've read this a couple of times from different people, and I just don't understand where it came from. One of the weirdest things about the Lincecum/Rios situation was how open everyone was about it. Here's Sabean talking openly about it for a half-hour:
http://media.knbr.com/knbr/1207sabean.mp3
Agree with OSG about moving Molina now rather than at the deadline or letting him leave after the season and pocketing the picks. Pablo isn't quite ready to be the everyday C because the Giants didn't use that opportunity at the end of 2008.
Unless a team like the Mets or another team shows some real motivation to get Molina in the next several months, they should plan on Molina for 2009, and see how quickly Posey can move up the system over the next 2 seasons. The Giants need to figure out a way long-term to get both Pablo and Posey's bats into the everyday lineup by 2011, and it isn't clear yet how they can do that until they see what they have behind the dish with these two.
As for Winn, I would keep him as well for 2009 and pocket the pick(s) unless again someone is really motivated. It may be that the NY and Chicago teams make a play for Winn before the season, but unless something really helps the Giants in the infield and middle relief, I don't see a good reason to jump on something before the season.
The first thing we need to do is trade Randy Winn. He's a solid bat with good speed and good defense, but at $9 million is very overpaid. He's drawing attention from numerous teams and would not only free up cap space to spend on power bat, but also free up space for Shierholtz. Nate played well last year and at least deserves a shot at the major league level.
We should stay away from Sabathia, but rather be a player for Teixeria. He plays everyday, not once every 5 days. He's a 35+ hr guy with great defense, plus he plays a position we desperatly need to fill.
Trade Sanchez, not Cain. Cain is only 23 and will soon be a cy young type pitcher. Sanchez has great potential but I think his trade value will never be higher and could get us a power bat.
$9M is actually on the low side for a player like Winn. Players like him, Juan Pierre, Gary Mathews Jr., and others are getting over $10M per year.
Winn making $9M per is a pretty good deal for the Giants. I think I had Winn valued around $16M for his skillset.
Keep Molina. Hopefully Posey is tearing up AA and the Giants bring him up the second half to learn from Molina and split time.
I'm unsure about Jacobs, not sure if that's the direction we want to go at 1B. Although i'm surely not interested in starting any of the guys we have presently on our team.
Being that Manny is my fav player in baseball, has been since I was a lad, i'm all for signing him. (of course) won't happen.
Strengthen our bullpen, and add some pop in the middle of our line up.
At this point, Posey needs to show the Giants that he can handle High-A offensively and the pitchers defensively before we can talk about him at anything higher than AA in 2009.
Trading Molina is the smart thing to do. But it needs to be for prospects. For one, there's definitely a trade market among some of the top teams for catchers: Red Sox, Mets, Yankees are all looking for a starting catcher. Molina would be great for them because he's great on both sides of the ball and could hit 7th where he belongs.
Also, Molina would be valuable specifically because he is only on a one year contract. Team don't want to buy a long term albatross.
Moreover, Molina is getting older and he had some rather significant leg problems last year. I know it's hard to tell b/c he's slow anyway, but it really affected his play. If he gets hurt in the first half of the season, he'll lose a his trade value and then we'll get nothing for him. that's just too great a risk to take.
Sandoval can catch. I know he's young and he'd be working with young pitchers and he may not be great defensively, but the guy needs to be in the lineup. We need help with our offense, more than anything else.
The bottom line is that if the team can get something for him, do it and do it now. Don't wait. His value won't likely be higher during the season and there's a good chance it will be lower. We're not going all the way in 2009, so we might as well trade some of our tradeable assets while we can and stock up the farm system even more, which will give us greater flexibility later on.
Nostocks, I agree with you, if they can get back something of value for Molina now that helps them in the infield. I'm not sure how a Pablo/Holm corps does over a full season this early, but if they can get back a young infield bat for Molina or a solid middle reliever who can eat up innings, then do it.
I understand the worry about whether Pablo can handle catcher defensively over a full season and if that is the case, then (assuming Molina is traded for something other than a catcher) I'd let Holm catch. If that isn't exciting enough, then sign Jason LaRue or Josh Bard or Paul Bako to a cheap 1 year deal as insurance.
My overall point is that the team is gonna stink in 2009, regardless, and they might as well give these young guys a chance to play to see if they have a future in this game. No time like the present for such an experiment. At least Pablo won't disappoint offensively.
Something of value is not enough. If the Giants keep Molina they get two draft picks (bottom half first round) and supplemental 1st round. If the Giants are to trade Molina they need to get more value then these two picks. The trades being discussed are just nowhere near enough value.
Remember the Giants are in a WEAK division. The addition of a threat in the lineup and bullpen help could add up to enough wins to reach the playoffs.
What is the team direction? Is it to get to the playoffs or develop the kids for another year? Or both?
Decide who your core players are and build/deal from there. Wait to be overwhelmed - let other teams come to you.....
True about Timmy going 10th to the Giants BUT the difference is he played about 4 miles away from Safeco Field in the M's own backyard. Instead of sending a scout to watch a game or two like other teams did, they got to see him on every homestand as he was setting NCAA records. They still thought he was too small.
Mike Jacobs? Yeah...no thanks, Travis Ishikawa is already as good as he is, so why throw away our prospects? Which I would not put past Sabean. I think The Giants should not make any moves this offseason unless a trade comes in for Zito, Molina, Winn, Rowand, or Sanchez that is just unbeleveable. But I do think the Giants should wait for the Trading Deadline to start trading players. If the Giants are not in the hunt, which is a probablility, they should trade Winn and Molina. Giving the outfield to Schierholtz, Rowand and Lewis, and if Buster Posey is ML ready give him the starting job at catcher, keeping Sandoval at firstbase or thirdbase.
Beginning of season:
Winn - RF
Schierholtz - LF
Sandoval - 3B
Molina - C
Rowand - CF
Ishikawa - 1B
Burriss - SS
Frandsen - 2B
By the end of the season:
Burriss - SS
Schierholtz - RF
Sandoval - 3B
Rowand - CF
Ishikawa - 1B
Frandsen - 2B
Lewis - LF
Posey - C
Posey is not ready - he barely played single A ball. However, he should be set for a September callup and start in 2010. If he's such a hot bat, I would prefer he move to first or OF.
Sandoval is ready to play everyday. Toss him at catcher and watch the fireworkds.
I bet my bottom dollar that Molina is traded to the Red Sox this offesason. We just don't need him anymore.
Posey could be ready. Plenty of young college studs have made it to the majors in their second pro year. From what I am hearing Posey is going to AA. If he lights up AA and gets promoted to AAA in the first half he could be ready for the major legaues by the second half. I am not saying this is likely. But you are being foolish saying flat out that it will not happen.
I'd try and get Heilman from the Mets for Molina and try converting him back to a starter.
If Winn was included in the deal to the Mets, Giants could try for 2 of 3 from Murphy, Evans & Heilman....
Nowhere near enough. Need to get more value then the two draft choices we would get if we kept him all year. This is nowhere near enough value.
Well, it is always not about trading whom or for whom, but for what return or at what cost. Molina or Winn would be good trade candidates, because they both had good years and, ultimately, are going to be relatively old as our younger players mature (and, hopefully, improve). I am a little distressed by the constant mention of players at positions at which we already have players, like outfield and first base. I would rather see the Giants pursue a trade with the Marlins for third baseman Jorge Cantu than a .247 hitting first baseman. Ugh. And, another old outfielder, even a real good one? Please. If there is one thing Brian Sabean has done fairly well, in my opinion, is not telegraph his moves all over the press until they are done, or nearly so. So I hope and pray that these "Giants interested in..." rumors are just that.
Agreed; I'm actually surprised at how quiet Sabean has been lately. He's not telegraphing anything like he was earlier this month when he talked about trading for arbitration-eligible players to fill the infield slots.
The main time Sabean telegraphs anything is the annual post-season press conference the Giants hold the day after their season ends, and it is usually just general needs any of us could have said, like this year's "need middle lineup bat and relief help". Other than that, he has the occassional on-line chat that seems to occur once every blue moon, even though they usually announce it as a "new" feature going forward.
He never talks about specific players, he always talk in generality and never definitively, any possible general moves are what he would like to do "in an ideal world" but sometimes the market doesn't go the way he thinks it would and they don't make any moves, or make the moves that they were hoping to make.
He keeps everything close to the vest and rarely opens his kimono and share anything. And the Giants appear to have an inviolable rule that nobody leaks anything to the press (I'm assuming, "or else").
It seems to me that anytime there is a leak about what the Giants are doing, it is because the other party leaked it, as I cannot recall many (any?) finalized trade that fans knew about beforehand, other than when it is known that the Giants are moving someone and the media matches them with another team. Usually, it is like the stupid fan trade proposals (thus why I think the leak is from the other team) which sends all the Giants fan crazy with fear that Sabean will do something stupid while nothing happens and the fear fades.
And I think the free agent pursuits are often leaked by the player's agent to drum up business and demand.
>>He keeps everything close to the vest and rarely opens his kimono
You mean like this?
Just wanted to chime in and say "thanks" to the regular commenters to this blog. You folks are well informed and thoughtful, two traits that are generally missing from blog comments.
The team needs (in order) pop in the middle of the lineup, better middle relief, and a #5 starter. Remember that, as bad as they finished, if they had better relief behind Cain and better production on the 5th day than Misch/Correia, they would've been well over .500. [Yes, I'm still counting on a bounce back year from Zito, and yes I do also believe in the Easter Bunny.] I think they can address those needs without moving Cain or Lincecum; if anyone else's name (other than Sandoval) comes up, they need to listen.
Unless they move Winn (which opens up other possibilities), they are set already in the OF unless Sabean hopefully listens next week to inquiries about Rowand. So any improvement in the batting order will be focused on the infield, presumably at the non-Burriss positions.
Simply put, is it better in 2009 for them to keep their pitching and go with either in-house options or inexpensive short-term FA signings this offseason for the infield; or should they be ready to package the likes of Sanchez, Taschner, and perhaps Molina and Winn to upgrade the non-Burriss infield with power?
I wonder with Jacobs going to KC, the Giants were interested in Ryan Shealy before when he was with Colorado, would they be looking at him?
I rather go after Ryan Howard if available now or Prince Fielder. I would definitely trade Molina if we could had a #3 or #4 starter if we could somehow get rid of Zito and make a run at CC...
Crazy thought... sign Manny and trade for Peavy. With the NL West very flawed, these players would make great additions. Look what happened with the Dodgers when Manny went there. Now assuming Manny wont get the 6-year $30m per he is asking for. Perhaps with this economy, he'll "settle" for a 2-year $20M per. Peavy is rumored to be on the market, and his salary is relatively affordable at $11M for the next couple of years. Trade Sanchez, Schierholtz or Lewis, and Bumgarner or Alderson for Peavy. With their offense, they'll need to keep their opponents to 3 runs or less.
Lineup would be:
Burriss SS
Winn RF
Sandoval 1B
Ramirez LF
Molina C
Rowand CF
3B?
Frandsen 2B
Rotation:
Lincecum
Peavy
Cain
Zito
Alderson/Bumgarner?
Posey wont be ready in 2009. Even Evan Longoria spent a whole season in the minors in 2007.
I know I'm dreaming with this scenario, but the Giants need a big name to fill out the ballpark to pay for their mortgage. It could happen.
It's not crazy - we are all just afraid that Sabean would give Manny 6 years at $20 mil, so that the team would suck until the next decade because $40 mil of payroll would be tied up in Zito and Manny.
Giants need to move B. Molina, Mets are a possibility. Schnieder and Church to the Giants for Molina. Church wants out of New York and Molina is worth more then Church even up. We also need tio move Winn and Wilson Their value is as high as it will probably ever be. We need to open a spot for Scherholtz and a Closer with an ERA as Wilson had is throwing Gas on a Fire. Give Romo or Alderson a shot.
At least check your data before you quote it: Wilson's ERA was 3.72 in save situations, not great but still good. It was when Bochy was trying him in non-save situations that killed his ERA. Bochy learned his lesson and during the season used him less and less in non-save situations.