 |
 |
When the Giants Come to Town, It's Bye-Bye Baby | |
|
|
When the Giants Come to Town, It's Bye-Bye Baby | |
|
Giants 40-Man Roster
(w/2010 Salary, if known) PITCHERS
Affeldt (4.5 M)Bumgarner Cain (4.5 M) Hinshaw Joaquin S. Johnson Lincecum (9 M) J. Martinez Medders (.85 M) Pucetas Romo Runzler J. Sanchez (2.1 M) H. Sosa B. Wilson (4.4 M) Zito (18.5 M) CATCHERS
Molina (4.5 M)
PoseyWhiteside INFIELDERS
BurrissDeRosa (6 M) Downs Frandsen Gillaspie Huff (3 M) Ishikawa Pill Renteria (10 M) Rohlinger F. Sanchez (6 M) Sandoval Uribe (3.25 M) Velez OUTFIELDERS
BowkerFord Lewis Peguero Rowand (13.6 M) Schierholtz Torres OTHER
Bonds ($5 M deferred from '05 + interest)Gigantes
McCovey ChroniclesObsessive Giant Compulsive Only Baseball Matters Bay City Ball Giants Win Paap Fly Croix de Candlestick The Dodger Hater Give 'Em Some Stankeye Skaldheim Say Hey, It's Mays Field! The Cha-Cha Bowl Jay's Giants Blog FanBunker Giants page Giants Cove Cot's Contracts - Giants page The Old Lefty Malo Ligas Menores
Fresno Grizzlies Stats Norwich Navigators Stats San Jose Giants Stats Augusta GreenJackets Stats Otros Beisboleros
Soxaholix Aaron Gleeman (Twins) The Soul of Baseball Batgirl (Twins) Tiger Tales The Cub Reporter Dodger Blues Cardinal Diaspora Athletics Nation The Pinstriped Blog (Yanquis) Futility Infielder (Yanquis) USS Mariner Phillies Phlow The Score Bard's Humbug Journal Fire Joe Morgan Free Agents: Post-2006 and Beyond Dugout Dollars Diccionario del Beisbol Non-Baseball Links
Live From MontrealDC Metalwork El Commandante Batista The View from Fort Miley Toshikomi The SFist The Bistro Hugo Archives
February 2010January 2010 December 2009 November 2009 October 2009 September 2009 August 2009 July 2009 June 2009 May 2009 April 2009 March 2009 February 2009 January 2009 December 2008 November 2008 October 2008 September 2008 August 2008 July 2008 June 2008 May 2008 April 2008 March 2008 February 2008 January 2008 December 2007 November 2007 October 2007 September 2007 August 2007 July 2007 June 2007 May 2007 April 2007 March 2007 February 2007 January 2007 December 2006 November 2006 October 2006 September 2006 August 2006 July 2006 June 2006 May 2006 April 2006 March 2006 February 2006 January 2006 December 2005 November 2005 October 2005 September 2005 August 2005 July 2005 June 2005 May 2005 April 2005 March 2005 February 2005 January 2005 December 2004 November 2004 October 2004 September 2004 August 2004 July 2004 June 2004 May 2004 April 2004 March 2004 February 2004 January 2004 December 2003 November 2003 October 2003 September 2003 
|
DRINK. . .
We MUST offer arbitration. He's better than an older PUDGE coming here (but that may cost $4 mil less?).
Scratch my head.
Molina is too big of a cry-baby egotist to come back for one year at $6M. He asked for multi-year and a raise. He probably would settle for one or the other, and probably get the former, much like Feliz, who reportedly turned down a bigger contract from the Giants for a multi-year deal with the Phillies at less per year money.
ELM, you should have also mentioned that Baggs did not think that Molina would come back under that circumstance as he wants multi-years and a payraise.
I have suggested Zaun, Ausmus, and Jose Molina as possibilities to acquire. Zaun has done it - keep seat warm for catching prospect - and he's not that old, he is about Molina's age. However, he has family around Tampa Bay and looks like he might resign cheaply in order to play near home, meaning we would need to seriously overpay to get him. Ausmus, however, is that old (42?) but comes from the Dodgers, so maybe we can pick his brain about what he observed while in La-La Land. Both are good defensively and offensively.
Jose Molina is so good defensively that the Yankees best pitchers insist on him catching. Of course, with their offense, they can afford to play him because of his poor offense. But maybe he can teach Posey some catching tricks while with us.
I like the Sandoval idea, other than that it might screw him up for playing 3B for the next few years and force him to 1B sooner.
But let's say we do what you suggest and have him catch full-time if necessary. At that point, we could either move Franchez to 3B, where he played excellent defense before, and play Frandsen or Velez at 2B, or we could play Frandsen at 3B, which he would have been doing in 2008 if he didn't blow out his Achilles heel. Of course, that would require a utility guy to replace him, at which point we bring up Rohlinger or Downs, or even Burriss.
Or, if by some miracle, we are able to re-sign Uribe, then he could also start somewhere or be that utility guy still.
I think the "Bochy plays Vets" theme is a bit over blown by the Giants fanbase. If that were true, the pitching staff would not be so young right now. Plus Sandoval and Burriss would not have been starting last season, one of them would have been replaced by Uribe, based on this theory. It's true, vets are more reliable than rookies most of the time. It's knowing when to cut the rope that is key.
I think the Giants are going to go cheap this year and see what inexpensive hitter falls into their lap in Dec/Jan. I think they are going to save the money and invest more into their farm system, either via international free agents (both Latin and Japan, they are supposedly pursuing a couple of Japanese players strongly) and/or into their farm system to support Neukom's "Giants Way" directive.
Buster Posey current line in the AZL in 58 ABs 224/328/362 for an OPS of 690. ‘Nouf said.
Molina should not be brought back under any circumstances. He will be a deposed leader. Bringing back a deposed leader is asking for trouble.
If Sandoval is not installed as the starting catcher next year then Sabean and Bochy should be fired. That move is worth 3 to 5 wins alone. I don’t want to go into the numbers which seem to bore everyone, but trust me, that move with nothing else will put the Giants into the playoffs.
Walter, hit me with the numbers. I won't be bored. In fact, if you want to email them to me, I can turn them into a guest-post. No pun intended.
The shorthand is, according to Fangraphs, Sandoval’s hitting was worth 3.5 wins to the Giants last season. Molina’s hitting cost 0.93 wins to the team. Replace one with the other and that’s an improvement of about 4.5 wins, assuming Sandoval can defend as well as Molina, and Sandoval’s replacement at 3rd could be worth zero wins.
Are You Serious?
Panda was a 5.1 WAR player at 3B while Bengie was a 1.8 WAR player at C. Assuming Panda could be a 5.1 WAR player at C with the reduced playing time, and positional adjustment balancing each other out you still have to find a 1.8 WAR 3B just to break even. Gain can only come from finding a 3B that provides more then 1.8 WAR and to get to 3-5 more wins that 3B would have to proved 5-7 WAR.
Work on your reading comprehension. "Sandoval’s HITTING was worth 3.5 wins." (Caps added.) The fielding I discussed. Actually the replacement 3rd baseman could get into negative territory fielding to replace Sandoval. See why I hate to get into numbers. So few people understand them
So do you just go from site to site telling people to work on their reading comprehension?
Moving Panda to C with Whiteside as backup until Posey is ready) opens up a starting sport at 3B for Uribe (who is a good fit) and they can sign a 1B (Blalock?) or give Garko a full season. Once Posey is ready, Panda could move to 1B (or back to 3B) permanently. Sanchez-Panda-FA-Uribe batting 2-3-4-5 should be a big improvement over last season's offense.
why mess with Pablo's bat at this point by putting the burden on him catching...makes little sense...he will have to carry the offense on hi s back, let him focus on becomign a better hitter. Asking to start as a catcher is too much...
The "difficulty" of catching is overrated - squat, put down a sign, catch the pitch, throw it back, repeat. When you get tired of squatting, walk out to the mound and ask the pitcher where he wants to go for a drink after the game. Certainly, the team could limit the "strain" of catching by having Sandoval catch particular starters, say Zito, Sanchez, and Cain, and then having Whiteside (or whomever) catch Lincecum and the #5 guy with Sandoval moving over to 1B on those days. But Wholly Cow, Panda is only 24, they don't need to start babying him.
W.G.'s cocksureness crows atop a rickety roost, even using his own figures. If we assume that Sandoval is a constant (3.5 wins, using WG's figures) at 3B or C, it's obvious that the only gain can come from replacing Molina, as GR indicates. I wouldn't risk repeating in slightly different terms what GR has already pointed out, except that I rather like chastising someone who can produce the smug "'Nouf [?]said" about Posey's BA in a very short-term situation, ignoring P's long record of excellence--he was the Spink winner for his MiL 2009--and his repeated pattern of starting out each new league slowly and then heating up.
I'm a Zaun man.
The thought of Molinia starting as a Giant & hitting clean up in 2010 makes me …
Pee down my leg in rage and fear. Then the adrenaline hits bringing the shakes and tunnel vision.
**
I would rather go with Zaun or someone similar. Despite the claims of a few Bochey will not make a veteran over 30 earn his play time unless he is competing with another veteran over 30. 3 years here provides no example to counter the statement. If the team is to not waste the “cheap years” of Tim, Cain & Panda the roster has to be built in such a way that Big Head cannot give us more of what we saw from the All Star break to mid September this last season. Waiting on the veterans to” turn things around” was what blew the ’09 season and it will damn the 2010 season if given half a chance.
**
I am pretty much in the leave Panda alone camp. It should be a lot easier to find upgrades at first and catcher then to find a the up grade at 3rd. Add to the it the increased chance of injury at catcher and Sandoval is the only bat on this team that can threaten an opposing pitcher and we need to make every effort to keep him as healthy and in as many line up cards as possible.
Yes, leave the Panda alone. Catcher is a murderous position. I'd rather stick Garko back there. It's not as though we've been getting stellar defense from the catching position anyway. Remember all of the passed balls?
Having a position player like Pablo that can also play catcher is extremely valuable. That means that the Giants do not have to carry three other catchers, two will do. Your point about a potential injury is a fair one, but the same could be said of any player on any team. From a long term perspective the Giants have to offer Molina arbitration, I expect him to be enough of a professional so that if he accepts it, he won't spend all year whining and thus reducing his future value as a free agent. If Molina leaves, we can find a catcher to fill in and hope Posey can handle the duty. Moving Sandoval just creates another problem that is not now an issue. Molina is a "problem" only in so far as he (with Bochy at the helm) may be playing instead of a better hitter, and is being asked to perform a role for which he is not suited (clean up hitter). What the Giants need to do is muscle up so Molina can be the 6 or 7 hitter. That also takes pressure off of Posey in the same position.
In Theory I like the rotating a catcher to a corner infield spot and behind the plate. IF Buster gets his chance and sticks being able to do that between Sandoval and Posey would be a very efficient way to build the roster.
The problem though is right now there is Sandoval and then there are a couple levels for hitting prowess that the 2010 squad looks to empty of and then we start to get to the "best" of the rest. In that situation the team really should take every precaution to protect the one non dreck hitter it has.
**
As for Molinia I am not worried about is attitude. Why I oppose him has everything to do with Who fills out the lineup card and the rational he has used to fill out those lineup cards the last 3 years. Bochey can't seem to help himself and don’t expect a player to stop him.
For 6 million I would rather have a guy like Mark DeRosa who can play multiple positions for us, is a little more reliable with the bat, and doesn't clog up the bases. That is the bottom line for me in answering the question of whether to keep Bengie another year or not, with a limited budget I would rather see that money spent elsewhere and see if we can get by with Posey, Sandoval, and either Whiteside or a cheap free agent option.
Sandoval is good enough to play behind the plate for a few months without costing the team defensively and it shouldn't affect the way he hits either, you could amputate both Pablo's arms and he would still find a way to rake. After getting through the first few months of the season you could take a closer look at it and either Posey will be ready or there will be trade options out there to explore but spending 6 million on Bengie doesn't do anything to improve this team over last year.
This is the typical scenario that has plagued this team over the last few years, reluctancy by management to take a chance on youth instead of overpaying a washed out veteran to babysit a position. Every time they have chosen the grizzled vet over going with youth it has ended up biting us in the ass and the end result hasn't put us in the playoffs any of the last few years so bottom line is that it hasn't worked. Let's try using our young guys and spend the money on someone who doesn't just fill a key position with veteran leadership and clubhouse presence. Let's get someone who can actually impact this lineup and take our chances with guys like Pablo and Posey at Catcher, Velez and Frandsen in the infield, and Schierholtz and Bowker in the OF.
Yes, offer arbitration. It is acalculated risk.You have to be prepared to bring in two hitters so that if you get stuck with Molina he bats 7th or 8th and he wont jam up the bases in the middle.If Molina comes back and bats 4th we all all going to fucking throw up! I will sell my tickets if there is a buyer.
The latest update from Ken Rosenthal's and Jon Paul Morosi's blog at FOX Sports indicates that the Pittsburgh Pirates are willing to trade Ryan Doumit.
His trade value is pretty low right now and his upside is pretty high seeing as he can play catcher and some OF, possibly even 1B. It would be risky but we are obviously on speaking terms with the Pirates Brass so how about Sabean goes out and puts together a deal for him that doesn't include one of our top pitching prospects. If he is healthy and motivated, Doumit could be a 25+ HR guy and provide some nice thump in the middle of the lineup. Uggla is rumored to be available as well and he may be the better option but Doumit would solve our catcher problem and is probably going to come cheaper then Uggla.
Doumit has a fairly reasonable contract, $3.6 mill this year and $5.5 next and $500K buyout in 2012. But I think he is an above average catcher that will require above average talent in return. Pucetas-Valdez? I dont think I could be supportive of anything more than that. He has never hit mroe than 15 homers, so I doubt we would get more than that, but more sensible than one-year of Molina at $6 mill. But I would want Posey starting next year.
But could Garko give us potentially as much offensively as Doumit? Possibly...also I think Torrealba is worth discussing, I think he is a better defensive catcher than Molina and he had a great September offensively...
I would seriously look into using Ryan Garko as a backup catcher or alternative option. He was a great catcher in college and the Indians converted him to play 1B because of their ddepth at Catcher at the time. I think this is an experiment worth trying because you don't really loose anything by trying it.
Honestly I would go with any of the above options over Molina and would have zero problems with giving Garko a shot as long as he doesn't break the bank next season. I doubt he could be the offensive threat that Doumit could be but if he is cheaper and doesn't cost us prospects then it is probably worth it. Basically I think everyone here has determined that there are plenty of alternatives to another year of subpar defense and sluggish baserunning from Bengie not to mention the occasional whining and pouting about how unappreciated he was. Did anyone ever here Garko whine and pout after getting zero playing time the last month of the season?
The thought of Molina returning makes me almost as sick as the thought of Bochy returning.
Do not offer Molina arbitration. He is posturing for a multiple year deal, but he won't get anything great and he probably knows it. He will accept arbitration if the Giants offer it and then we will be stuck with him. The possibility of an extra draft pick is not worth the risk. He will be over-priced because he will win more than he deserves in arbitration and since Bochy is the manager he will start over Posey. That will be a wasted 6 million (or so) when the Giants need all of the extra cash for other moves.
Since Bochy is the manager, I do not want the Giants to have any realistic option for catcher anywhere near the dugout other than Posey. With Bochy in charge, if there is anyone else around, at the first hint of any offensive slump or defensive ills, Posey will be perma-benched. Thus, either Holm or Whiteside should be the backup and if Posey is utterly failing at mid-season, then pick up a catcher before the trade deadline.
Molina is absolutely posturing. He is at most a $4mil a year player and on a year to year contract to boot.
Absolutely should not have Whiteside on the team because Bochy is already in love with him. You all know what that means.
When Bochy started Whiteside over Posey multiple times at the end of the season it would have been unbelievable, except it was exactly what he did the year before with Winn over Schierholtz and Aurilia/McClain over Ishikawa. I agree that even having someone like Whiteside around will risk Posey losing starts. Hopefully someone higher up will lay down the law to Bochy regarding making Posey the starter for the first half no matter what Posey's performance looks like. I think Posey will have a decent rookie campaign if given consistent playing time. But it would be surprising if he did not encounter a few bumps along the way and what I fear is that those bumps will result in inconsistent playing time, which will then exacerbate whatever small struggles Posey is having because the inconsistent playing time itself will become the cause of the poor performance. It is a vicious cycle, and it is exactly what happens with many of the Giants' younger players.
Bochy is toxic to young players.
It's as though he suffers from some pathological fear of the unknown. He has no confidence in his ability to develop young players, and he blames the players for his phobia and/or incompetence.
I don't think Bengie will accept arbitration. He set a career high last season with 20 HR and from what I've heard he was pretty excited about reaching that mark. I bet he's confident that he can get at least a 2 year deal from somebody.
If we offer arbitration, Molina WILL take it because other teams may give him a multi-year contract but more like 2 years for 9 mil.
Greed is bad. Forget about the extra draft picks and move on.
I think it is completely wrong to be contemplating moves based on Posey being the starter. The Giants '10 intentions regarding Posey were made perfectly clear when they brought him up in Sep and chained him to the bull pen. They do not intend to start '10 with him on the MLB roster. He may come up around the AS break, depending on other things, but it looks to me like they intend to keep him in AAA for, most likely, a full year, with, again a Sep call up.
So, we need a starter for '10, and, most likely, it comes down to Molina, Pudge, Zahn (if he will come to the west coast), Torrealba (if he is not too pissed to come back for a year). The Gs need a starter, so they are not going to experiment with Garko, who has never caught at the professional level. Sandoval is a remote possibility, but I do not think he would be moved to C unless all other options failed. They would go for Jose Molina before putting Sandoval behind the plate - they have already demonstrated their reluctance to do that - and they only need to fill the position for one year. Whiteside and Holm fight for backup.
I think it is likely the Gs offer Molina arb. Either way they win. If he refuses, they get draft picks. If he accepts they have a 1 yr solution that can be replaced by Posey in July/Aug, if it looks like he is ready and Benji's production has seriously declined.