When the Giants Come to Town, It's Bye-Bye Baby

12.16.2009
The Case for...Johnny Damon?

 

Thought exercise time: If the Giants' leadoff options dwindled to two choices, which would you choose?

A) a platoon of Eugenio Velez and Andres Torres in left field

B) an expensive one-year deal for Johnny Damon to play left field

Of course the answer is C) Someone who is younger than Velez, as defensively agile as Torres, and blessed with Damon's on-base skills.

But there is no C. Not on the free-agent list, at least. I'm sure we could come up with a handful of trade candidates, but someone who fits C's skills would command a bounty in trade, and the Giants need to reserve their bounty in case a power bat becomes available.

The problem with Damon is that his power will be greatly diminished at Mays Field, which means his OBP could suffer, too. He's left-handed, and he hit 17 of his 24 home runs in 2009 at Yankee Stadium, all to the short porch in right field. Mays Field will turn many if not most of those homers into outs. Unless he proves he can still drive the ball up the right-center field alley, outfielders will pinch in and cut off his line drives.

The other problem is that his arm is terrible and his range is diminishing by the hour. A late-inning defensive sub like Torres will ease that pain somewhat, but a glove caddy also removes Damon's bat from a team likely to play a lot of games close-and-late.

So, quick, gun to your head: A) or B)? And if you have any clever ideas for C), might as well let us have those, too.  



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Since we can't build a time machine to last month and sign Chone Figgins, the answer is A. No question.

A. End the overpaid veteran parade!

In this particular case, A. Damon would get exposed by this ballyard, as you said.

Agreed..Damon's not the guy and would be a misuse of funds. I expect Velez/Torres to be a pleasant surprise.

If Nick Johnson is signed somewhere else, B.

If we get Nick Johnson, A.

I don't believe in either choice.

I don't know if this would work but I would have Nate Schierholtz lead-off. He doesn't have burner speed, but he's a smart baserunner who has stolen double digits in the minors during his career. If he can hit .300 in the majors, his OBP would not be that terrible, and he's been able to figure out how to hit .300 all the way up the minors, so I would give him a chance to do it in the majors.

Though I would probably try Edgar Renteria there first. Renteria's speed is all gone, but if his problems hitting the past couple of years was related to the asteroid-sized chunk of debris in his elbow, he should be getting on base at a .350+ clip, which would be OK for leadoff.

Thinking over what we got now, probably something like this for the lineup:

Renteria
Sanchez
Schierholtz
Sandoval
Rowand
Bowker
Ishikawa/?
Posey

With Bowker and Posey to move up once they are comfortable hitting. If everyone hits as well as hoped, I would do something like:

Schierholtz
Sanchez
Posey
Sandoval
Bowker
Ishikawa
Rowand
Renteria

With Renteria serving as the secondary leadoff guy.

I might even toy with the idea of having Posey bat leadoff too, since he gets on base a lot and doesn't hit for a lot of HR power yet.

No great solution pops to mind, just choices we can make, should make, to see what happens.

How about Fred Lewis as an option "C" that doesn't cost anything in a trade?

Apparently, Lewis ran over Bochy's dog, or something. Doesn't look like he'll get the chance, though he would be the best internal option.

As much as I dislike him, I choose Aaron Rowand over options above.

Velez/Torres (note how they do not even qualify as a single player) should NOT BE STARTERS, not even considered starters.

Lewis's worst month will be infinitely better than Velez/Torres's best month.

I'm all for Fred Lewis, but I'm not the manager.

A. However, since your description of Damon (diminished power, OBP suffering, diminished range, terrible arm...)appears to fit a lot of guys who are already on the team, I suppose we'll be welcoming Damon as the next Giant soon enough. At least Rowand occasionally gave a glimpse of decent performance, however fleeting. Hopefully, the G's will instead choose the cheaper option (A.) until someone decent comes along.

In the Caribbean winter leagues Torres is hitting 234/315/391. Velez has 281/331/397. Schierholtz is doing better with a 324/366/527 but has only one homer and has drawn only two non-intentional walks in over 70 PAs. I do not have confidence in any of them.

I'm not sure I understand why we'd need a "younger" Velez when he's only 27? Torres is 31.
Regardless, I'd vote for Velez leading off all season unless he tanks, then go with Torres.

I do not have confidence in any of them.

We have a winner!

Just rearranging a pile of turds.

Damon is a waste of space..he will be lost in the NL. Figgins was the only leadoff difference maker in the free agent market. They are likely to go with Option A, but be prepared for this Option C:

Scott Podsednik for $3 mill - 1 year deal.

Bat him leadoff and then split time in left and right among my order of preference, Nate, Velez, Torres and Rowand.

If you play 6 games a week, that gives the team 18 outfield starts. I would make sure Nate is starting 4 of those games:

From Left Field to Right
Game 1: Velez-Podsednik-Nate
Game 2: Rowand-Podsednik-Nate
Game 3: Torres-Podsednik-Rowand
Game 4: Velez-Rowand-Nate
Game 5: Velez-Podsednik-Nate
Game 6: Torres-Podsednik-Velez

Nate would get his 4 starts, Podsednik 5, Velez 4, Torres 2 and Rowand gets his bone of 3 starts. Of course Blockhead will likely start Rowand all 6 games...and bench Nate....

My gut also tells me that the giants are going to land Uggla, my gut last spoke when we signed Zito, so we may be in a world of trouble...

1) Podsednik - CF
2) F. Sanchez - 2B
3) Panda - 3B
4) Uggla - 1B
5) Nate - RF
6) Rowand/Velez/Torres (as noted above)- LF
7) Posey/Whiteside
8) Renteria

I will have a stroke if Renteria is hitting leadoff as suggested by obsessive. Nate is not a capable potential leadoff guy either. You need someone that has the ability to put down a bunt hitting leadoff to keep the infield honest and that is not Nate, Renteria or Rowand...I think the above lineup is capable of 88 wins, but not convinced yet it would get you to 90.

But I expect the Dodgers and Rockies to be back to reality this year and SD will likely be worse and D-Backs marginally better. 88 wins could win the division.

Unfortunately all this talk is a lot like rearranging chairs on the Titanic. With options like Velez, Torres, Renteria, Lewis, Rowand, Nate, and Damon being thrown around for the leadoff spot it should paint a pretty clear picture in everyones minds that this team is going to suck no matter who is leading off!

That said, I would like to try and stay positive and look at things like potential experience gained and upside for some of these players mentioned and with Rowand, Renteria, and Damon there is no potential upside or experience that can improve them down the road by batting leadoff. Damon is the most accomplished by far and most capable but he will be pricey and is old and basically garbage.

As for Lewis, Nate, Velez, and Torres, I would go with all except for Nate as he does nothing that shows me he can be a capable leadoff hitter or even belongs in that spot in the lineup. I am warming up to the idea of Lewis leading off to start the season and if he tanks then look at Velez and Torres as second options. I have said it before that I like Velez and his potential but between him and Lewis, Lewis has definitely proven himself a little more even with last seasons horrible digression.

So no matter who leads off, it won't be pretty and we should expect them to struggle. As for the rest of the lineup, everything is looking peachy right about now! I don't really want to trade Sanchez for Uggla and would prefer we get rid of prospects instead. I haven't really heard any other trade scenarios but am wondering why we never hear of anything between Sabes and the Rangers. They are loaded to the gils with power hitters and desperately need pitching so it is a little surprising that these two teams haven't at least had conversations.

I wouldn't mind Podsednik either, he is an injury nightmare but could be cheap and still has some potential to get on base, hit in the clutch, steal the occasional bag, and be a spark plug when healthy at the top of the lineup. If they can get him for 3 mil I would do it.

Signing Damon would be a huge mistake. Velez has the potential to hit .280 10-15 homeruns and 25 steals if he starts. Even as a defensive liability, he could be an above average leadoff hitter.

A report fron the NY Post says Damon wants 3 years at 13 mil each and will not come down.

Garrett Atkins got signed by the Orioles which is a relief because Sabean was reportedly interested in him.

The Yankees are "interested" in N. Johnson to be their DH. The bidding just got serious.

Late report says N. Johnson signed one year deal with yenkees for 5.5 Million.

Bummer.

I am interested why some of you are so high on Schierholtz. He is a inpatient hacker who has hasn't hit with much pop. He is a fine defensive outfielder but if he ends up as an everyday player it will be a weak spot in the lineup.

DRH, I dont know how much you watch, but I think Nate consistently gets good wood on the ball and is a very physically strong, so when he does make contact, there some oomph to it. Plus he is by far the best arm in the outfield and plays plus ddefense, but I would predict that you will see him hit .280 15-20 homers this year if he starts 2/3rds of the time...

Exactly.

And we never get to see him because Bochy has him cahined in his closet 90% of the time.

280 and 15 jacks from a corner outfielder is not particularly helpful. If you couple that with an obp around 310 you don't have much at all. If the Giants have to settle for that it will be a problem.

As a 4th or 5th outfielder Nate would be fine..He is a plus defender. The fact that is a cheap option will probably get you your wish that he is the right fielder on opening day.

As for seeing the Giants, I watch almost every game. Schierholtz has a very flat swing which is good for contact, especially going the other way, but not really the type of swing that hits homeruns. If Nate could generate some plate discipline which would result in more walks and a higher obp his high average potential would be more useful production wise.

I like Schierholtz's swing: as you note, it is good for contact, but it is also good at generating backspin which gives the ball lift and carry.

I also believe that (unlike Pedro Feliz) Schierholtz's plate discipline will improve with experience. In any event, he will give the Giants at least as much as they got out of the RF position last year, with a strong possibility of improved production from that spot. And he's cheap.

If I could play GM for a month, I would call the Brewers every single day to pester them about trading Fielder (and yes, Cain could be part of the deal). A middle of the order with Panda and the Little Prince could do a lot of damage.

If Cain is trade-bait, I would prefer Adrian Gonzalez over Fielder... if I was GM for a month, I would consider trading any of the pitchers for A-Gon... yes, even... The One.

DRH, plus Nate got bange dup in late July in Atlanta and was not the same and my projections of .280 hitter with 15-20 homers was based on starting 110 games a year. I think huis numbers will approach 20 homers and 90 rbis if he gets the starts he probably deserves in the 140 realm.

I would kill for .280, 20 hoemrs and 90 rbios from right field...and I am all down with better plate discipline, but I have more faith in Nate in that department than Bowker, Ishikawa and Velez...

Sorry about the typing, frozen here in DC...

But I am wondering now about the possibility of signing Bay more and more. Appears Red Sox have walked on him and Bay wants no part of the Mets for good reason. I think a $70 mill, 5 year deal is something Sabean should be pursuing...and maybe he just might be talking.

The Giants with their pitching and their division have a better chance and a faster chance at winning than the Mets and Bay, being the quiet reserved type, probably wants no part of the NY media. SF by comparison and the fans being easy to please for the most part, would seem
a far more enviable place to play. You probably have to offer him the 5-year $70 mill deal to help him save face.

I think Bay would likely in our lineup hitting fourth, should still generate 25 homers 100 plus rbis hitting behind Pablo. If Pablo can replicate similar power numbers and Nate hitting close to 20 homers hitting 5th, I would be very happy with that lineup.

I much prefer Bay to Uggla. Reasons:

1) Wont require the significant prospects Uggla would take to acquire;

2) Uggla will likely make $7-$8 million in arbitration this year. My plans as outlined earlier would stagger Bay's salary over 5 years and pay him $10 mill the first year. Bay for $10 versus Uggla possibly at $8 seems to be a fairly even trade off;

3) I am not convinced that Uggla could replicate his Florida numbers at ATT being more stocky with I think a slower swing than Bay, who is 6'2" versus I htink an inflated 5'11" Uggla; and

4) Even though people knock Bay for his defense (he committed zero last year for Boston), he is still a better fielder in elft than Uggla would be in left or even Uggla at second, third or first.

Add all this up, I think Bay gets three checks and one push between the two on salary...so do it Sabean! DO IT!

And Go Niners!!!

Uggla is:

a) Better power hitter
b) Younger
c) Cheaper even with arbitration
d) Will not tie down our team with another stupid 5 year contract

Bay is a good but not great player. Definitely not even a $12 million dollar man let alone $18 mil for 5 years.

Updated lineup proposal:

1) Podsednik - CF
2) F. Sanchez - 2B
3) Panda - 3B
4) Bay - LF
5) Nate - RF
6) Posey - C
7) Ishikawa - 1B
8) Renteria - SS

Bench: Whiteside, Velez, Torres, Rowand and utility IF (boy would Uribe be a nice guy to keep to play any of the non-1B infield positions).

Further thoughts with Uribe, against lefties, Ishikawa would sit, Panda at first and Uribe at 3B. I think they could probably have Uribe start a couple games a week at third and a couple at short.

Velez could get a start or two at 2B and would give Rowand 3-4 starts a week in the OF. Velez could also start against lefties and leadoff for Podsednik..

So against lefties:

1) Podsednik/Velez - CF
2) F. Sanchez - 2B
3) Panda - 1B
4) Bay - LF
5) Uribe - 3B
6) Nate/Rowand - RF
7) Posey - C
8) Renteria - SS

Get over Ishikawa, Pete. He is a single -position, defense-only, light-hitting player with no speed.

For all of Fred Lewis's defensive inadequacies, he is a superior option in LF than Podsednik.

That said, it would be better to upgrade in LF.

And no, Velez/Torres are not good enough to be everyday players. That is the most fraudulent sell job ever by the Giants brass.

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